# What the hell happened to contemporary animation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759 "2013-03-01T20:16:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/21 "2013-03-02T00:51:44Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > _Rocky and Bullwinkle_ was masterfully animated with an almost-CGI realism, but I liked it. Bahahah yeah, Rocky And Bullwinkle, now those are the halcyon days of masterful animation! (I love Rocky and Bullwinkle but it contained about as much animation as a slug on sedatives in January) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/22 "2013-03-02T01:03:08Z")
> [@dataguy](#): > > I once heard a graphic artist lament that students in art school today are not required to learn how to draw!!! I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that guy was full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/23 "2013-03-02T01:49:51Z")
Definite old fart here. Just looked at a clip of _Archer_. Boring. Unless it is being boring as some kind of ironic effort. Then it is just dumb. You must have loved _Mary Worth_ and hated the early _Peanuts_ and _Calvin and Hobbes_, let alone _Far Side_. Sort of reminds me of the complaints about the early impressionists from the more realistic styles of academic painting in its day and the complaints about cubism … _Adventure Time_ is gorgeous! And brilliant. If I want realism I can watch real people act. I want creative and fun. Edgy I can do without though. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/24 "2013-03-02T01:57:21Z")
I’m fine with _The Simpsons_ as well–maybe because it started when I was a youth, and so it’s “normal” to me. I can also get over animation that I don’t care for. For a long time I refused to watch _South Park_, based in part on the visual style. (I also thought it was all dick and fart jokes.) Eventually I wound up watching the Chicken Lover episode, and that completely turned me around–I realized it was actually a pretty smart show. I never watched it religiously, but I could enjoy it if I bumped into it. ETA: I love the old joke about _Mary Worth_: Someone mentions reading it. The person she’s talking to says that she used to read it, but hasn’t read it in like ten years. The first person responds, “Well, it’s about five minutes later…” 😃 I never cared for _Peanuts_, but just because I thought it was boring and sort of sappy; the art was fine. My local paper never carried _Calvin & Hobbes_, so I missed out on that one entirely. On the other hand, I was a big _Bloom County_/_Outland_ fan… ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/25 "2013-03-02T03:14:07Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > _Rocky and Bullwinkle_ was masterfully animated with an almost-CGI realism, but I liked it. My daughters like _Adventure Time_ and _The Regular Show_, but there’s too much yelling, especially when I’m trying to sleep. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > Bahahah yeah, Rocky And Bullwinkle, now those are the halcyon days of masterful animation! > > (I love Rocky and Bullwinkle but it contained about as much animation as a slug on sedatives in January) I think \*\*dropzone \*\*must be referring to the 2000 Rocky & Bulwinkle feature film. > [@DSeid](#): > > Definite old fart here. Just looked at a clip of _Archer_. Boring. Unless it is being boring as some kind of ironic effort. Then it is just dumb. You must have loved _Mary Worth_ and hated the early _Peanuts_ and _Calvin and Hobbes_, let alone _Far Side_. > > Sort of reminds me of the complaints about the early impressionists from the more realistic styles of academic painting in its day and the complaints about cubism … > > _Adventure Time_ is gorgeous! And brilliant. If I want realism I can watch real people act. I want creative and fun. Edgy I can do without though. You have to appreciate _Archer_’s animation style by remembering that **it is not a cartoon!** It is an _animated series_. Much like _King of the Hill_ was. IOW nothing overtly cartoonish can happen in it, as it’s supposed to take place in the (or at least ‘a’) real world. Consequently they shouldn’t look garishly colorful, but realistic, even sometimes gritty. Go by the number of fingers. _The Simpsons_ never gets too cartoonish like having eyes bulge out or anything, but the characters do have yellow skin, no chins, and only four fingers (except God!) Same for the MacFarland shows and _Bob’s Burgers_. _King of the Hill_’s characters on the other hand were more realistic (including five fingers). _South Park_ goes in the opposite direction, their characters don’t have any fingers at all! Nor do they even bother having their legs move when they walk. Nor do they need to. One of the things I think is so wrong with the past ten or so seasons of _The Simpsons_ is that the animation has gotten way, _way too good. It’s not supposed to be a Disney show (far from it)! The emphasis is supposed to be first & foremost on the writing, and amping up the animation quality does absolutely nothing to help the poor scripts. The opposite is true for South Park_, _KOTH_, _Archer_ etc. The animation is both uniquely styled and _only as good as it needs to be_ to support the writing and voice performances. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/26 "2013-03-02T04:17:14Z")
Futurama has moments were it’s just gorgeous. And I know this is kind of a blanket statement, but I love their color palette on that show. It’s just so bright and awesome. Batman: The Animated Series wasn’t perfect, but it was a high water mark too. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/27 "2013-03-02T04:19:23Z")
Some of the stuff that shows up on Adult Swim makes me NOT want to know what DIDNT get chosen. It’s just…crap! ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/28 "2013-03-02T05:25:53Z")
I think the change in styles happened around the _Ren and Stimpy_ era. So it’s John Kricfalusi’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/29 "2013-03-02T14:40:41Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > I think the change in styles happened around the _Ren and Stimpy_ era. So it’s John Kricfalusi’s fault. Yeah, love him or hate him John Kricfalusi deserves the credit/blame for quite literally defining the style of independent animation for the past 20+ years! Unfortunately he, as true artists often do, insisted on going too far, not doing anything remotely resembling ‘selling out’ (which usually included making money), and was rather egotistical and acerbic with bosses and colleagues. Still, everything from _Adult Swim_ to \*SpongeBob \*can trace their lineage directly back to _Ren & Stimpy_. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/30 "2013-03-02T17:50:15Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > You have to appreciate _Archer_’s animation style by remembering that **it is not a cartoon!** It is an _animated series_. Much like _King of the Hill_ was. IOW nothing overtly cartoonish can happen in it, as it’s supposed to take place in the (or at least ‘a’) real world. Consequently they shouldn’t look garishly colorful, but realistic, even sometimes gritty. Go by the number of fingers. _The Simpsons_ never gets too cartoonish like having eyes bulge out or anything, but the characters do have yellow skin, no chins, and only four fingers (except God!). That ship sailed for The Simpsons _ **DECADES** _ ago. Homer jumps off the Nuclear Plant cooling tower, climbs a mountain in India, goes to space, and is bitten by an elephant in season five. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/31 "2013-03-02T18:13:21Z")
Other factors: **Target audience.** The target for many of the shows you are bemoaning is a young adult demographic. Once upon a time most animation was aimed at kids with (in the better ones) just enough thrown in to make the shows tolerable for the parents trapped watching them too (and for the writers’ kicks). Plenty of kids cartoon look just the same as they had decades ago. The YA demographic often wants “edgy” in their animation, just like in their humor. Not standard animation. **Nostalgia.** _Most_ of the shows from decades ago were actually animated for shit. Quality animation cost and Hannah-Barbera showed that cheap (limited) animation, re-using the same cells over and over again, little character movement but characters with distinct styles, dialogue and joke driven, could be very profitable. They required only a fraction of the individual that cartoons previously required. The Flintstones was popular but quality animation it was not. **Computer graphics.** How do hand drawn cells compete with even relatively lower end computer animation? By creating styles and feels that are distinctly different and new. Helps if they are also not expensive to produce. Certainly not by trying to look more realistic. Mind you using computer animation as a tool create these new styles and feels is also legit – but in an era that computer animation can sometimes not be told apart from life action impressing with realism, spending the time and money to create realism, is a losing proposition for a TV show’s budget. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/32 "2013-03-02T18:26:43Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > I’m talking about the art style. Obviously, there’s a lot of good stuff: _ **Archer** _ is the finest example, of course\*\*\*.\*\*\* I can agree to disagree that the “art style” of \*Archer \*is “fine.” But as animation, it’s as wretched as everything else done with limited-motion and sprite animation since the Hanna-Barbera TV days. Fine, no one can afford to do proper full-motion animation any more, especially not on a TV budget. But this trend towards posed stick-puppets that’s only “finer” than the animation of\* South Park\*… well, it’s pretty much judging which pile of shit is higher. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/33 "2013-03-02T18:32:52Z")
It ain’t get no better than _Squidbillies!_ Move along now… ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/34 "2013-03-02T19:09:56Z")
Adventure Time (and John K’s stuff also) owes its style to the old [UPA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPA_(animation_studio))cartoons (like [Gerald McBoingBoing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Geraldmcboingboing-1950.jpg) and [Mr. Magoo](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=imghp&q=classic+mr+magoo&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&biw=1440&bih=785&sei=TUwyUdzFBOf90gGS9IDICg&tbm=isch#imgrc=43z2XfThlYh1SM%3A%3BFmxxo9Pr6DddEM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmedia.npr.org%252Fassets%252Fartslife%252Farts%252F2010%252F12%252Fdavid-bianculli-holiday-picks%252Fmagoo-a378150a1c057e41ed5a4c7e84388f0b6b29aec4-s6-c10.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.npr.org%252F2010%252F12%252F10%252F131780348%252Fbianculli-6-dvd-sets-worth-wrapping-up-right-now%3B948%3B711)). They in turn were influenced by [Columbia Cartoons](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ColumbiaCartoons) and [Terry Toons](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TerryToons) who were influenced by expressionism in the modern art world. This isn’t anything new. It’s just what you are used to. Mainstreem cartooning is just catching back up to where we were in the 40s and 50s after a long fallow period. Hanna Barbera, that was crap animation. Good stories, but the animation was crap. This is stylized for a purpose, not the same thing as crap. You might not like it, but it’s not crap. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/35 "2013-03-02T19:49:45Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > This is stylized for a purpose, not the same thing as crap. You might not like it, but it’s not crap. I think you have to differentiate between art style and animation quality. I’ve seen quite a range of artistic style, from South Park’s paper cutouts to… oh, say, the better sequences of BAS and BB. But when the animation frame rate is somewhere between zero and ten per second, with character motion like cutout paper dolls… I don’t really care how amazing the “art” is. I’ll take WB simplicity with at least an attempt at full-motion. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/36 "2013-03-02T20:33:32Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > I think you have to differentiate between art style and animation quality. I’ve seen quite a range of artistic style, from South Park’s paper cutouts to… oh, say, the better sequences of BAS and BB. But when the animation frame rate is somewhere between zero and ten per second, with character motion like cutout paper dolls… I don’t really care how amazing the “art” is. I’ll take WB simplicity with at least an attempt at full-motion. Well sure, that’s why I pointed out HB and how their animation was crap. But with computers doing so much of the animating who is doing limited animation anymore? I haven’t watched Adult Swim much in recent years, but the limited animation that I have seen there seems like it’s an intentional choice rather than a lack of funding or skill. Even South Park only does it as part of the joke these days and that started because they couldn’t afford to do more. Animation has gotten cheap enough that it’s just not necessary as long as you aren’t totally independent. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/37 "2013-03-02T21:14:22Z")
I’m an Archer fan myself but I laughed when I saw it being hailed as an example of fine animation. I always felt that it was hilariously stilted and rigid. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/38 "2013-03-02T21:19:59Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Well sure, that’s why I pointed out HB and how their animation was crap. But with computers doing so much of the animating who is doing limited animation anymore? I don’t know anyone doing full-motion animation for TV. Some is optimal limited-motion, but far too much of it descends to HB and that awful anime trope where they just move a still image around a lot. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > I’m an Archer fan myself but I laughed when I saw it being hailed as an example of fine animation. I always felt that it was hilariously stilted and rigid. All the characters move as if they have paper-brad joints, and it tends to be one-move-at-a-time on top of that. Even with computers managing the lines and flow, it’s not the same as true full-motion, which is admittedly expensive… but they could do better than this jointed-puppet work. I think it’s “intentional” because they can get away with saying so. I like animation. I like gritty, funny stuff. I just can’t stand Archer, though, and the animation is a good part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/39 "2013-03-02T23:37:47Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I’m an Archer fan myself but I laughed when I saw it being hailed as an example of fine animation. I always felt that it was hilariously stilted and rigid. In a strange way that’s why it works - the stiff animation makes the over-the-top dialogue even funnier. In a way, Archer is the television equivalent of [Partially Clips](http://partiallyclips.com/). ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759/40 "2013-03-03T00:04:31Z")
The art style works for Adventure Time, too. If AT (which I am not a fan of, but know enough about to know how the style fits the show) can be called bad art despite that, then so can Archer’s limited animation of mid-90s clipart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-happened-to-contemporary-animation/651759.md?page=3)