# What the hell is going on in Chicago? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228 "2018-08-07T13:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/21 "2018-08-07T15:51:21Z")
Treating gun dealers exactly the way drug dealers have been treated would sure be interesting. They aren’t drug gangs, they’re gun gangs. The drugs are a piss in the sea, comparatively. If the gangs were fighting with knives it would still be bad, sure - but bad with a lot less dead people. ---
**Author:** ![Panther\_Modern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@Panther\_Modern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panther_Modern)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/22 "2018-08-07T15:55:13Z")
One problem is the [flow of guns](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-laws-stop-at-state-lines-but-guns-dont/) to Illinois. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/23 "2018-08-07T16:05:05Z")
Why? Ok, how about this. [\*\* What is wrong with Indiana gun laws?\*\*](https://hcgv.org/?page_id=9) A) No required background check when purchasing a firearm from a private seller at a gun show or on the internet. B) No limit to the number of guns purchased at any time. So, a “banger” with numerous arrests and prison time drives to Indiana with a suitcase full of cash. He buys as many guns as he wants, hands over the untraceable cash, and drives back to Chicago. He sells them out of the trunk of his car to any and every “banger” he meets. Result: Chicago is full of illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/24 "2018-08-07T16:13:26Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > It’s lack of organized gangs or more accurately, tons of them. What happened was that Chicago had a drug violence problem in the 90s. How they addressed it was to find the leaders of the various gangs and crack down on them hard. Then they would work their way down the hierarchy until they completely destroyed the gang. It worked great. Chicago doesn’t have huge controlling gangs like other cities with the exception of the Latin Kings who have managed to maintain their hierarchy. The problem was though that while they eliminated the leadership, the gangs still existed and it created a power vacuum. This led to the creation of all sorts of small turf gangs with small numbers of members that would sometimes only control a single block. They might be nominally affiliated with the Gangster Disciples or Vice Lords, but with no leadership they were left to themselves. It’s pretty easy to see the problem. Now instead of resolving differences by working with the leadership of the gang, they just kill each other. You have Gangster Disciples killing other Gangster Disciples because there is no hierarchy to keep them under control. You’ll have Bob and Joe at a party and Bob will say Joe is a douche and at one time, Boss Hogg would say, “Listen, you’re both Disciples, hug it out. Bob apologize.” and they would. Now, Joe comes back with ten of his friends that are their own mini-gang and shoots up the party. Basically, what we did was create an Iraq in Chicago. We exchanged one big, bad guy for a thousand bad guys and chaos breeds violence. Ah, yes. The one thing worse than organized crime, disorganized crime. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/25 "2018-08-07T16:17:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s good, because it’s not an answer, it’s a question. > > And the answer is - because the people in charge of Chicago clearly don’t care about black gang members killing each other. I thought it was obvious. That is not obvious to me; first I’ve heard of it. How do you know the authorities in Chicago are less concerned about black gang violence than in other large cities? If true, why is that? I mean, I didn’t think they much cared ANYWHERE. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/26 "2018-08-07T18:34:12Z")
Chicago magazine has [reported](http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/) on Chicago aldermen actively seeking gang support as a valued constituency and useful source of campaign organization. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/27 "2018-08-07T18:40:42Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Why? Ok, how about this. > > [\*\* What is wrong with Indiana gun laws?\*\*](https://hcgv.org/?page_id=9) > > A) No required background check when purchasing a firearm from a private seller at a gun show or on the internet. > B) No limit to the number of guns purchased at any time. > > So, a “banger” with numerous arrests and prison time drives to Indiana with a suitcase full of cash. He buys as many guns as he wants, hands over the untraceable cash, and drives back to Chicago. He sells them out of the trunk of his car to any and every “banger” he meets. Result: Chicago is full of illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis. That’s a relief then, it’s all Indiana’s fault, nothing to do with inept Chicago politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/28 "2018-08-07T18:48:20Z")
Historically, Chicago is noted for this sort of thing. I recall reading years ago, in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, that since prohibition, there had been exactly 999 gang related killings in Chicago. The total numbers of solved killings in that time? Zero. I probably read this sometime in the late 1950’s, so please don’t ask for a cite. That’s a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/29 "2018-08-07T19:00:31Z")
This weekend was the perfect shitstorm: Thursday: A group of very minor activists decided that they had to ‘shut down’ a major north/south highway during rush hour on the North (affluent) side of Chicago to make sure the North side felt their pain. This cost the city several hundred thousand dollars as well as endless police coverage since the activists threatened to also invade Wrigley Field. This weekend was Lollapalooza, a massive music festival drawing well over 100,000, mostly young. Finally, the micro gang nature of Chicago leads itself to the very petty gang battles. One gang member can make a rap video dissing another gang on YouTube and thus the other gang feels like they have to respond. The turf wars can get amplified when police, that have been working non stop since Thursday since the Lake Shore Drive shutdown are trying to empty Lollapalooza on a Sunday which leaves gang members open season on Sunday night. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/30 "2018-08-07T19:10:43Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > This weekend was the perfect shitstorm: > > Thursday: A group of very minor activists decided that they had to ‘shut down’ a major north/south highway during rush hour on the North (affluent) side of Chicago to make sure the North side felt their pain. This cost the city several hundred thousand dollars as well as endless police coverage since the activists threatened to also invade Wrigley Field. > > This weekend was Lollapalooza, a massive music festival drawing well over 100,000, mostly young. > > Finally, the micro gang nature of Chicago leads itself to the very petty gang battles. One gang member can make a rap video dissing another gang on YouTube and thus the other gang feels like they have to respond. The turf wars can get amplified when police, that have been working non stop since Thursday since the Lake Shore Drive shutdown are trying to empty Lollapalooza on a Sunday which leaves gang members open season on Sunday night. Cite that the protest, or music had anything to do with gang murders. That protest was largely about begging for help in the poor areas that are ignored due to institutional racism. Clue: This is the result of our “war on drugs” ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/31 "2018-08-07T19:10:57Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > My understanding is there are 2 big factors in this problem. > > 1. The police cracked down on the big gangs, arresting their leaders. This caused the gangs to splinter into a bunch of smaller gangs who went to war with each other. > > 2. The city tore down the low income, high crime housing areas like Cabrini-green. The residents were then spread throughout the city. The goal was to hope that a middle class surrounding would reduce crime among the old residents, but what may have happened is now hardened criminals are spread all over the city and are starting up smaller gangs. > > So basically those 2 things resulted in a large number of small gangs, rather than a small number of large gangs. And those small gangs are all fighting over territory. Number 2 is what I said was going to happen when they announced way back they were going to do it …And all the gangs established in other places are fighting back against the newcomers making it the 1920s all over again Only way its gonna stop is if an al Capone type shows up bringing everyone together or killing all who opposes him and his… Sad thing is Chicago is now an example on why you keep the “projects” around instead of tearing them down and making something better …aka "lets keep the rats in their cage " ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/32 "2018-08-07T19:10:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They’re not nearly as strict next door in Indiana, the primary source of Chicago guns. > > Just one problem among many, yes, but one that can be addressed. Sure, that’s always the excuse. When gun control laws dont work (and in the USA, they never do) it’s always because the next area over is sending in guns. If we had tight border to border Federal controls, it be blamed on Mexico and Canada. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/33 "2018-08-07T19:17:45Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Why? Ok, how about this. > > [\*\* What is wrong with Indiana gun laws?\*\*](https://hcgv.org/?page_id=9) > > A) No required background check when purchasing a firearm from a private seller at a gun show or on the internet. > B) No limit to the number of guns purchased at any time. > > So, a “banger” with numerous arrests and prison time drives to Indiana with a suitcase full of cash. He buys as many guns as he wants, hands over the untraceable cash, and drives back to Chicago. He sells them out of the trunk of his car to any and every “banger” he meets. Result: Chicago is full of illegal, untraceable guns that are being used on a daily basis. That has been going on for decades … in fact in the 80s the federal law enforcement had set up shop in several gun stores just to bust people from Detroit and Chicago There used to be huge signs in some of the Indiana gun shops that said in huge letters " we do not sell to anyone who does not have an Indiana id 6-12 months old " ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/34 "2018-08-07T19:27:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They’re not nearly as strict next door in Indiana, the primary source of Chicago guns. > > Just one problem among many, yes, but one that can be addressed. It may be addressed, however much all the people with Confederate flags on their trucks don’t want to see it addressed. Indianapolis’ murder rate has risen every year for I-don’t-know how many years. Since I’ve been paying attention, at least, and I’ve been living here seven or eight years. And the murders the last few years have not been confined to the “bad” areas of town, where the people who manage to get to the polls can’t keep ignoring them. And, more importantly, the rise in murder can be attributed to gun murders. We haven’t had a strangler or axe murderer on the loose skewing the statistics. We haven’t even had a rash of fatal bar fights or wife-beatings, or anything. We’ve had fatal shootings. Also a rise in non-fatal shooting. And, we had a school shooting. And it was up north, not in one of the places you’d predict a school shooting (well, where most people would predict it; personally, I’d say it’s a dice roll). No one was killed, so it probably didn’t make the national news, but people around here were pretty shaken. There’s been a lot of talk locally about what to do. Most of it has been idle wind, but people will eventually realize that there’s a connection between the lax gun laws and the shootings. For example, you aren’t supposed to be able to get a carry permit if you have been diagnosed with a mental illness, but the check for this means when you fill out an application for a gun permit, you just check a box that says “No,” you’ve never been diagnosed with a mental illness. There’s no database of people diagnosed with mental illnesses, so there’s nothing to check it against, and they just take your word for it. Oh, they say they will prosecute you for perjury if you lie, but no one really believes anything will happen to them, and the truth is that it probably won’t. The worst they would do is take away your permit-- _but not your gun_. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/35 "2018-08-07T19:27:55Z")
Maybe there needs to be a border wall between Illinois and Indiana. Maybe someone else will pay for it. Hey it could happen. Call Mexico and see how to pay for it, oh, wait nevermind, that was a big ol’ lie. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/36 "2018-08-07T19:42:42Z")
Few of the reasons given are completely without merit but most of them fall far short of plausibility in explaining the whole situation, and trend, particularly the upswing in recent years (although down again moderately just in last couple of years). The ‘guns from Indiana’ one is among the weaker ones. There isn’t any city in the US with an effective way of preventing guns coming in from relatively nearby states with looser gun laws. And ‘nearby’ doesn’t have to be a few miles given the value of illegal guns and the transportation network of the US. One can’t say there’s no effect of Indiana being so close (say compared to PA or Southern states on the I-95 corridor v NY) but it’s gotta be pretty small. Basic demographics are one reason if comparing to NY. People especially from Chicago like to think of it as somehow comparable to NY though it hardly is in any major way, murder or otherwise. NY is more of an immigrant city. Even the much smaller ‘African American’ % in NY includes a lot of immigrants and kids of immigrants rather than blacks with deep roots in the US. For whatever reasons, murder is a particular affliction of African American communities as in the descendants of the freed people more than recent immigrants of African descent. NY also includes in its boundaries more of what would be inner suburbs in other cities, and has a bigger mass of rich people in the heart of the city than any other US city. But some of it seems to be peculiar to Chicago’s PD or interaction of Chicago’s particular local culture to the PD. The most shocking stat in the recent weekend of 70-some (I believe the total is up to now) people shot, 11 killed is _no_ arrests last I heard. The capability of the CPD and its method of interaction with the public must have room for improvement for that to happen. The good news is that must be improvable by the Chicago city govt, to some degree at least, if the political will is there, though the latter is a big if. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/37 "2018-08-07T20:09:11Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > But some of it seems to be peculiar to Chicago’s PD or interaction of Chicago’s particular local culture to the PD. The most shocking stat in the recent weekend of 70-some (I believe the total is up to now) people shot, 11 killed is _no_ arrests last I heard. The capability of the CPD and its method of interaction with the public must have room for improvement for that to happen. Without a doubt, many Chicago residents – particularly African-Americans – don’t have much trust in the CPD. And, that’s for understandable, and long-running, reasons. One example is a now-infamous CPD commander, [Jon Burge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Burge). For several decades, Burge tortured, and oversaw the torture of, numerous suspects (particularly African-Americans and Hispanics) to extract confessions. Despite the fact that Burge’s crimes were uncovered in the early 1990s, and he was fired from CPD in 1993, he and his actions still regularly appear on the news, since the city is still dealing with lawsuits filed by his victims. In recent years, the city has had several instances of questionable use of deadly force by CPD officers against African-Americans, such as the [Laquan McDonald shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Laquan_McDonald). It’s hard to tell if it’s the result of that mistrust, or if it’s fear of retaliation from gang members (I suspect it’s more than a little of both), but it does seem like the CPD has a hard time getting witnesses to come forward on these shootings. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/38 "2018-08-07T20:55:43Z")
Guns are a distraction, you have a large population that has zero access to the legal system due to the drug trade and mistrust of the police due to racial and socioeconomic reasons. While the body count may drop they would just resort to other forms of retribution as the problem is primarily due to the drug war. Really they will just start stealing guns as there are so many firearms in circulation anyway. While we are not perfect over here in Seattle, focusing on harm reduction, treatment and other methods has helped reduce the violence. Quit using the stick and start trying to use a carrot with drug policy if you want to save lives here and abroad. You simply have an organized crime problem. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/39 "2018-08-07T21:12:10Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Guns are a distraction, you have a large population that has zero access to the legal system due to the drug trade and mistrust of the police due to racial and socioeconomic reasons. > > While the body count may drop they would just resort to other forms of retribution as the problem is primarily due to the drug war. Really they will just start stealing guns as there are so many firearms in circulation anyway. While we are not perfect over here in Seattle, focusing on harm reduction, treatment and other methods has helped reduce the violence. > > Quit using the stick and start trying to use a carrot with drug policy if you want to save lives here and abroad. > > You simply have an organized crime problem. Yes, there are just as many guns in every other big US city, but less crime. Chicago does have stricter gun controls than most, and no doubt, guns do come in from other areas. But in areas where they can just walk down and buy those guns, the violent crime rate isnt that bad. Dallas, San Antionio & Houston, where guns are very available, have about half the murder rate of Chicago. Nevada & Arizona have just about the easiest gun laws- but a murder rate in LV or Phoenix of 1/3 that of the Windy City. To be fair, Los Angeles and NYC have fairly strict gun laws but are also quite a bit lower than Chicago. _So, it aint the guns._ It’s Chicago- Chicago has the highest murder rate of any 1MM+ pop city in the USA. If anything, Chicago stands as a dismal failure of Gun Control laws. But one can point to LA & NYC as mild successes, so I am trying to be balanced here. What the difference is that LA & NYC both have fine professional police forces. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228/40 "2018-08-07T21:14:13Z")
To be clear, I am not in the camp that says that gun control has no value, just that it won’t solve this problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-chicago/819228.md?page=3)