# What the Hell is going on in Florida? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110 "2004-08-16T18:34:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/61 "2004-08-17T20:00:43Z")
**Uncommon Sense** , just see _Monty Python’s Life of Brian_, okay? The references will all become clearer. Since you ask anyway, I’m a moderate, which in the US today is short for “fiscal conservative, social liberal” despite frequent obfuscation by the partisans. The Democratic Party and its candidates usually match my preferences more than anyone else’s do, mainly because they’ve targeted us moderates while the Republicans are excommunicating theirs. That’s been different in the past, and it could change again. Yes, I am in favor of all the things I listed; I could list more, but those are the ones that moderates who still adhere to the Republicans seem primarily interested in, and that’s who I aimed it at. The point of that post was to get any reader with a serious dissatisfaction with their party to consider which party best reflects their own views of what the government should do. That suggestion is independent of time or place, too. I see no one, including you, has taken issue with the observation that the hard-core right is not about to “give back” the GOP to the moderates who used to run it. If the moderates don’t want to generate the militancy required to _take_ it back, then they need to make a decision of a different sort - and yes, that can be deciding to just keep on whining ineffectively but voting for 'em anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/62 "2004-08-17T21:44:30Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > As for them keeping the party? Nah. I thought the same way you did till I started hearing about some guy from the northeast last summer. He didn’t have a chance, either. But he took on the established power bloc, and all but won. I’m assuming you’re talking about Howard Dean here; if not, disregard the following. Dean was well within the Democratic mainstream, politically. He “took on the established power bloc” mostly by not being afraid to take on the Republicans, head-on, instead of going along with most of what they wanted, and trying for a concession here and there. McCain in 2000 is a better model for what you’d like to see happen - and despite winning some big primaries, McCain was a _long_ way from being able to win the 2000 nomination. If he’d run as an independent/third party candidate this year, he might’ve rearranged the political scene considerably. > [@](#): > > (And defeated the Clinton choice handily, as I understand it.) The Clintons are hardly an omnipotent force in Dem politics. It’s not the sort of party where _anybody_ can be one, really. And as I understand it, Wes Clark was the Clinton-backed candidate, and he got into the campaign awfully late in the game. > [@](#): > > Two Democratic wins from now… maybe three… and it’ll be time for a new Internet campaign to bring back the Republicans. Because all that’s going to happen is the Moral Majority is going to go more and more batshit crazy over time, as things keep happening that they can’t handle. Gay marriage alone may break them. (I can’t wait for it to break the DOMA… it’ll get them off abortion for a while.) The problem for you is, the Christian right isn’t going to go away. They’re also on the Internet, and still have the best grassroots in the game from pre-Internet days. I doubt the tax-cut obsessionists are going to go away either, until there is no tax on capital gains or dividends, and the top income tax rate is 25% or less. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/63 "2004-08-17T22:17:03Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Not sure if this warrants its own thread or not, but in a related vein of paranoia: > > [FBI, cops track potential troublemakers at Republican convention](http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--gopconvention-sec0816aug16,0,317593.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire) > > Now, someone jar my memory, but was something similar done for the Democratic National Convention last month? Or is this a tacit admission that more people are _really_ pissed off at George than they are at Kerry? Even more paranoia, “Make driver’s licenses terror-proof: 9/11 panel” > **[Breaking News, World News, US and Local News - NY Daily News - New York Daily...](https://www.nydailynews.com/)** > > Find breaking US news, local New York news coverage, sports, entertainment news, celebrity gossip, autos, videos and photos at nydailynews.com. bolding mine > [@](#): > > Committee Chairman John McCain (R-Ariz.) indicated he was interested in a national ID card, which the American Civil Liberties Union has called intrusive. But 9/11 panel vice chairman Lee Hamilton said it was a small sacrifice and that **"the American public is becoming more and more agreeable to intrusiveness in order to protect themselves from a terrorist attack."** Man, fuck you, I’m not agreeable to this bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/64 "2004-08-17T22:21:36Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > I’ve seen this little meme floating around the Dope for a few days now, and it really bothers me. _There were serious problems with how the 2000 election was conducted in Florida_, all of which gave small advantages to the Republican party. **RTFirefly** has given a list of them above. There have already been cases of similar shenanigans in this election that were prevented only because people were paying close attention (that wacky statewide list of felons again). But rather than acknowledge that there were serious problems in 2000, both you and **Shodan** (in another thread) have trotted out this “If Bush wins the Democrats will just claim that he cheated” meme, as if incorrectly removing black people from the voter rolls and accepting military absentee ballots after the deadline has somehow created an environment unfair to the Republicans. > > It’s a wonderful bit of rhetorical ju-jitsu, but it’s also disingenuous and obfuscatory. If the 2000 election has created an environment in which the president’s brother and other Florida supporters of the Republicans cannot be wholly trusted to hold a fair election without close and constant scrutiny, then whose fault is that? Throwing out the magic bugaboo words “conspiracy theory” doesn’t change what happened four years ago. Here, here! ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/65 "2004-08-17T23:00:21Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > At least here in Denver, yes, some suspected troublemakers and known malcontents were visited by the FBI prior to the Democratic convention. According to the news accounts I’ve read, it was pretty much nationwide before the DNC convention, though why it didn’t get any news coverage then, I’ve no idea. One would think that Michael Moore would have loved to have been screaming about this when it was going on. (Not that he’d have been wrong in his anger, IMHO. I cannot, for the life of me fathom why _anyone_ would think that this is a good idea.) And frankly, I’m almost to the point where I don’t give a _damn_ who wins the fucking election, I just want the winner to be selected by an overwhelming majority, so there’s none of the bullshit of, “You stole the election!” “Did not!” “Did too!” that we’ve had to put up with for the past four years. It’d be nice if we could spend our time discussing the actions of whatever shithead happens to be in the White House, without it getting hijacked (or **non-political** threads suddenly getting hijacked) with debates about how the election was decided or if that land deal ten years ago was legal, or if the President did or did not get a blow job, or if the VPs really running the show, or if the President has any balls, or if he can walk without tripping over his own two feet, or if he knows what the hell he’s doing in Vietnam, or if he’s screwing around on his wife, or if all he does is play golf while the Soviets are running amok in Europe… ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/66 "2004-08-18T05:43:04Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > I’ve seen this little meme floating around the Dope for a few days now, and it really bothers me. _There were serious problems with how the 2000 election was conducted in Florida_, all of which gave small advantages to the Republican party. **RTFirefly** has given a list of them above. There have already been cases of similar shenanigans in this election that were prevented only because people were paying close attention (that wacky statewide list of felons again). But rather than acknowledge that there were serious problems in 2000, both you and **Shodan** (in another thread) have trotted out this “If Bush wins the Democrats will just claim that he cheated” meme, as if incorrectly removing black people from the voter rolls and accepting military absentee ballots after the deadline has somehow created an environment unfair to the Republicans. > > It’s a wonderful bit of rhetorical ju-jitsu, but it’s also disingenuous and obfuscatory. If the 2000 election has created an environment in which the president’s brother and other Florida supporters of the Republicans cannot be wholly trusted to hold a fair election without close and constant scrutiny, then whose fault is that? Throwing out the magic bugaboo words “conspiracy theory” doesn’t change what happened four years ago. Because there was no conspiracy. The election was so incredibly close and divisive that people scrutinized everything they could looking for a reason “why”. For example, you probably consider yourself an honest person, yet I have no doubt that if a person trailed you for a week, recorded and researched everything you said and then selectively only reported that, you (or any of us) could be made to look like a horribly dishonest person. They found discrepancies because: 1. The election was so close so as to make what would normally have been unnoticed and standard snafus an important factor. 2. They went looking for them. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/67 "2004-08-18T06:51:24Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Because there was no conspiracy. The election was so incredibly close and divisive that people scrutinized everything they could looking for a reason “why”. > > For example, you probably consider yourself an honest person, yet I have no doubt that if a person trailed you for a week, recorded and researched everything you said and then selectively only reported that, you (or any of us) could be made to look like a horribly dishonest person. > > They found discrepancies because: > > 1. The election was so close so as to make what would normally have been unnoticed and standard snafus an important factor. > > 2. They went looking for them. Wow. What a good little lap dog you are. I’m sure you also believed the story that the White House had been left in disarray by the Clinton team so that the Bush team would have to undo damage before they could begin their campaign of tyranny. :wally ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/68 "2004-08-18T07:01:27Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Because there was no conspiracy. Oh, sure. And I’m supposed to believe the Republican interns who were flown down to Florida to stage a riot and shut down the recall just happened to take a group vacation by coincidence, right? (Reference [here;](http://www.moldea.com/bushology4.html) see item #4) ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/69 "2004-08-18T07:01:57Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Wow. What a good little lap dog you are. > > I’m sure you also believed the story that the White House had been left in disarray by the Clinton team so that the Bush team would have to undo damage before they could begin their campaign of tyranny. > > :wally Wow. You are incapable of posting anything usefull, only insults. Also, [why haven’t you apologized yet?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5124291&postcount=21) ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/70 "2004-08-18T12:26:01Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Oh, sure. And I’m supposed to believe the Republican interns who were flown down to Florida to stage a riot and shut down the recall just happened to take a group vacation by coincidence, right? > > (Reference [here;](http://www.moldea.com/bushology4.html) see item #4) If all it took was a few interns from a _different state_ to shut down a recall then the recall effort going on had to be pretty loosely knit, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/71 "2004-08-18T13:51:37Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Because there was no conspiracy. The election was so incredibly close and divisive that people scrutinized everything they could looking for a reason “why”. Thank you for missing my point completely, and thereby providing a partial example of the kind of thing I’m talking about. Whether or not there was a conspiracy is startlingly irrelevant. Focusing on claims of a conspiricy _at the expense of actually dealing with the frickin’ problem_ is. Yammering on about how there is no conspiricy and that the mean ol’ Democrats are just setting up grounds for contesting the election if Bush wins does nothing but shift the blame away from the people who are actually responsible, in any sane universe, for dealing with this mess. Again: _there were serious problems with the 2000 election was conducted in the state of Florida_. You seem to consider those problems “standard snafus” that “would normally have been unnoticed”. I, however, and quite a few other people, consider voters being disenfranchised by erroneous lists of felons and the military ballots being accepted after the deadline (to name two such problems) to be pretty fucking serious whether or not they’re noticed. In fact, the fact that they were noticed is one of the only mitigating factors here. And the possibility that these are “standard snafus” just makes this even _more_ fucked up. I for one hope that people continue to pay incredibly close attention to the 2004 election in Florida. I think the United States voting populace deserves every possible assurance that the results will be completely legitimate and above-board. And a giant spotlight of public attention is a much better way to accomplish that than the alternative, which seems to be whining that it would be so much fairer to the Republicans if everyone would stick their fingers in their ears and assume that everything’s going to be just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/72 "2004-08-18T14:00:01Z")
Oh, and while I’m thinking of it… > [@Muad'Dib](#): > > For example, you probably consider yourself an honest person, yet I have no doubt that if a person trailed you for a week, recorded and researched everything you said and then selectively only reported that, you (or any of us) could be made to look like a horribly dishonest person. No doubt. But my weekly routine doesn’t affect the course of superpower nation of two hundred and fifty million people. My week: little geopolitical impact. Need for accountability to the world at large: small. The 2004 U.S. Presidential election: huge geopolitical impact. Need for accountability to the world at large, and to U.S. citizens in particular: pretty damned clear. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/73 "2004-08-18T18:52:45Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > If all it took was a few interns from a _different state_ to shut down a recall then the recall effort going on had to be pretty loosely knit, wouldn’t you say? :rolleyes: That’s as stupid as saying, “You got mugged by only three people? You must not have put up much of a fight, then.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/74 "2004-08-18T19:04:59Z")
> [@Uncommon Obliviousness](#): > > If all it took was a few interns from a _different state_ to shut down a recall then the recall effort going on had to be pretty loosely knit, wouldn’t you say? Wasn’t there supposed to be a ‘hundred’ in between ‘a few’ and ‘interns’? Because that’s how many paid protesters [Time Magazine](http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2000/1204/cover_riot.html) said were there. And not outside the building, either, but _inside, on the nineteenth floor, pounding on the doors and windows of the counting room_. You know, the counters just **might** have felt a bit physically intimidated. That wasn’t what they’d prepped for, when they came to the office that morning. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/75 "2004-08-18T19:45:00Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Because there was no conspiracy. The election was so incredibly close and divisive that people scrutinized everything they could looking for a reason “why”. > > For example, you probably consider yourself an honest person, yet I have no doubt that if a person trailed you for a week, recorded and researched everything you said and then selectively only reported that, you (or any of us) could be made to look like a horribly dishonest person. > > They found discrepancies because: > > 1. The election was so close so as to make what would normally have been unnoticed and standard snafus an important factor. > > 2. They went looking for them. 1. They were there. So why doesn’t Jeb and his buddies make absolutely sure the mean ole Demmies have nothing to complain about this time. Instead we get them trying to pull the felon scam again, his insistence that a paper trail is not necessary, and the new and cute trick of “investigating” Democratic voters. Yelling up front about how anyone objecting to you taking all the pots is a sore loser does not excuse you when aces are found up your sleeves. Ask yourself why Republicans in Florida are so afraid of a fair election. Republicans in California don’t seem to be. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/76 "2004-08-18T19:57:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The point of that post was to get any reader with a serious dissatisfaction with their party to consider which party best reflects their own views of what the government should do. That suggestion is independent of time or place, too. > > I see no one, including you, has taken issue with the observation that the hard-core right is not about to “give back” the GOP to the moderates who used to run it. If the moderates don’t want to generate the militancy required to _take_ it back, then they need to make a decision of a different sort - and yes, that can be deciding to just keep on whining ineffectively but voting for 'em anyway. I left the Republican party this spring for these reasons and more. The current rulers of the party are not satisfied with winning fairly, but they also had to use underhanded methods in the primaries 4 years ago. The create an environment in which torture happens, then get upset about it being exposed. They are more interested in winning than in fairness. There are many tactics that work, like the big lie, but moral people and parties refrain from using them. Morally I could no longer stay in the Republican party. The only way things are going to change is if the reactionaries get beaten so badly that the party has no hope of rejoining the mainstream until a change is made. The best thing that could happen to the Republican party in the long run is Bush losing by a landslide. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/77 "2004-08-18T20:02:09Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > …The best thing that could happen to the Republican party in the long run is Bush losing by a landslide. From your lips to the ears of Allah… ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/78 "2004-08-18T21:37:02Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > That is **5 time champ** ’s main weapon - surprise and fear… Well, surprise and fear and movie references… Okay, I’ll stop now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/79 "2004-08-19T01:09:30Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Well, surprise and fear and movie references… And an almost fanatical devotion to the Dope! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110/80 "2004-08-19T02:49:46Z")
I didn’t see anyone mention this article by Molly Ivins. More of the same. [Another fine mess…](http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/columnists/molly_ivins/9401074.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-florida/260110.md?page=5)