# What the hell is going on in New Orleans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013 "2005-09-04T05:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/21 "2005-09-04T22:54:38Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > Why such a big deal if people are taking stock that is not food? Why is that such a concern considering what has happened? Shooting somone for taking written-off, damaged stock is absurd. As far as we know that has not happened. There are armed gangs roving NO, looting and shooting at police, rescuers, and, contracters. People who shoot first, or who are in possession of a gun and refuse to stand down, are being shot. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/22 "2005-09-04T23:07:49Z")
…because part of what they wanted to loot was the pharmacies of the unevacuated hospitals. They laid seige to them, and the doctors had to barricade the doors and had to evacuate from the roof. Doctors and nurses who stepped outside were mugged and beaten. Looters are also stealing the food and water of those who had the foresight to bring it with them on the evacuation. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/23 "2005-09-04T23:10:04Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Looting is looting. The concept of letting a criminal do whatever they want is what’s absurd. I disagree. Looters may be taking TVs for barter. Furthermore, in certain cases the inventory may be lost anyway due to rising waters. Admittedly, that is less likely to be the case now. More to the point, law enforcement and fire protection are currently stretched. Therefore, they must prioritize. Until the National Guard arrives in force, the cops should focus their limited resources on what is most essential. Unarmed thieves probably don’t constitute the greatest threat to public order. A rather disturbing situation. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/24 "2005-09-04T23:27:02Z")
[http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/](http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/) Take a long look at the crazed looters. ---
**Author:** ![AFAIKnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a6a055/32.png) [@AFAIKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AFAIKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/25 "2005-09-04T23:51:55Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > [http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/](http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/) > > Take a long look at the crazed looters. Yeah, they looked pretty desperate to me. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/26 "2005-09-05T00:13:00Z")
> [@AFAIKnow](#): > > Yeah, they looked pretty desperate to me. Yeah, all the guns and the shooting at the cops and stuff. Horrific. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/27 "2005-09-05T00:19:05Z")
Um…folks…can we at least differentiate between Wal-Mart-shopper looters and mugging-doctors-outside-hospitals looters? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/28 "2005-09-05T00:34:46Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Yeah, all the guns and the shooting at the cops and stuff. Horrific. Well, the looters with the guns _were_ the cops. You’d hardly expect them to shoot at _themselves_. ---
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/29 "2005-09-05T00:43:00Z")
I am so glad those cops where “looking” for looters. I I herd correctly this was only day 2 or so after Katrina. My laughing is confusing me though. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/30 "2005-09-05T01:38:31Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Take a long look at the crazed looters. Just to clarify, when I suggested that law enforcement should prioritize, I didn’t have, “Looking after number one”, in mind. That was some vid. Not to be mean, but I sincerely hope that those 2 cops lose their jobs, at the absolute minimum. With great power, etc. etc. Natural disaster doesn’t necessarily bring out the best in humanity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/31 "2005-09-05T01:52:10Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > I disagree. > > Looters may be taking TVs for barter. What evidence do you have for this other than pure conjecture? > [@](#): > > Furthermore, in certain cases the inventory may be lost anyway due to rising waters. Admittedly, that is less likely to be the case now. And it may NOT be. Either way, no one has the right to steal it. > [@](#): > > More to the point, law enforcement and fire protection are currently stretched. Therefore, they must prioritize. Until the National Guard arrives in force, the cops should focus their limited resources on what is most essential. Unarmed thieves probably don’t constitute the greatest threat to public order. > > A rather disturbing situation. Look. The thing to do is to give local cops discretion to do what they think is best given the circumstances. Sometimes that will mean let the looters loot, and sometimes that will mean arrest the looters. Do you have any evidence that arresting looters was prioritized? The situation on the ground will dictate the apropriate response. Someone sitting at home typing on a computer can’t possible understand what should be done in any given instance. If I were a cop and I saw a woman with two kids grabbing a few loafs of bread, I’d probably look the other way. If I saw 5 young males armed with basball bats breaking into an appliance store, I’d probably arrest them. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/32 "2005-09-05T02:14:55Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Do you have any evidence that arresting looters was prioritized? Did I imply that I did? Did I imply that the New Orleans PD has such priorities? No, I don’t think so. I did comment about the video: which _appeared_ to show 2 constables (and various members of the citizenry) helping themselves to certain items at Walmart. ------- What evidence do you have for this other than pure conjecture? (Regarding looting for barter). I used the conditional for a reason, John. My sourcing was the Saletin article, who also used the conditional: “And while a lot of people have looted non-necessities such as liquor, jewelry, and television sets, it isn’t clear how much of this was taken with barter or desperation in mind.” ------ And it may NOT be. _Either way_, no one has the right to steal it. Emphasis added. Well this soft-hearted liberal thinks that, in an emergency situation, stealing food or formula to feed your kids isn’t wrong. Moreover in certain circumstances, _it would be a moral mandate_, IMO. John apparently disagrees: property is more important than human life. Interesting. As for the great majority of cases I’m guessing, I would agree that, “Stealing is wrong”. And I would add to that, “No kidding.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/33 "2005-09-05T02:16:56Z")
RETRACTION: I screwed up. _Either way_ referred to “rising waters”. My apologies to John Mace. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/34 "2005-09-05T02:30:28Z")
[pedantic] Also, I didn’t use the conditional. I used a [modal auxilary verb indicating uncertainty](http://www.ssdd.uce.ac.uk/learner/grammar/modals.htm). Still… [/pedantic] ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/35 "2005-09-05T03:54:52Z")
I hate to break up this liberal hippy love-fest with a slap of reality, but the reason people are a) looting non-essential items, b) shooting at each other and c) raping and pillaging is because THEY ARE CRIMINALS. New Orleans had one of the highest crime rates of any American city before the hurrricane. Do you think all these drug addicts, gang bangers and other dirtbags suddenly developed a change of heart because they were touched by the blah blah blah…? Nope. Many of them are taking advantage of the chaos to help themselves to a plasma screen that they will not be able to plug in anywhere. Many of them were roaming around in armed gangs robbing relief trucks. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/36 "2005-09-05T04:33:48Z")
Yes, many of the looters are criminals. Actually, pretty much all are criminals by definition, right? Still, **MSmith** appears to believe that most of the looters were hardened criminals before the Hurricane struck. If this is the case, his opinion conflicts with that of certain reporters on the ground, at according to William Saletan. [Cite](http://slate.msn.com/id/2125575/?nav=tap3). ----- Many of them are taking advantage of the chaos to help themselves to a plasma screen that they will not be able to plug in anywhere. In my experience with riots, lots of people take advantage of chaos. This accords with Biggirl’s video and on-the-scene reporting. ---- Do you think all these drug addicts, gang bangers and other dirtbags suddenly developed a change of heart because they were touched by the blah blah blah…? Golly gee, who has argued otherwise? I hate to interrupt this conservative state-the-morally-obvious circle jerk, but I’m concerned with _policy implications_. Yes, stealing is wrong. No freaking kidding. My point is that if you don’t send in the National Guard early and often, you shouldn’t be surprised when looting breaks out. This isn’t the first time looting has followed disaster in the US and it won’t be the last. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/37 "2005-09-05T04:59:57Z")
Well, it’s not like there’s a _lack_ of things to be done on the ground. I keep hearing from Mayor Nagin and others how overextended the law enforcement is, how they’ve been working straight for six days with three-four hours of sleep a night. Of course we’re all sitting in our comfortable homes typing on our computers, myself included, but it seems to me that there are far, far more important things to be done than worrying about looters. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/38 "2005-09-05T05:35:54Z")
I do not understand where this idea that shooting looters is some new nastiness that the US of A has just dreamed up. For as long as I can remember, and I’m old, looters get shot. Just recently has the idea of letting people get food without money to pay for it come into vogue. Mob rule, looting, these have been met with sudden death for a long time by society… In my old Army days, shooting looters was actually officially talked about in training… Insurance has nada to do with something being wrong or not. IMO Normally, if you are waving a gun around and the police tell you to put it down, that just might be a good idea. Now it seems people think it is okay to not only wave them around but to be shooting them off just because there is a disaster…??? So far, I have not heard any report of unarmed looters be shot, just armed ones. What is the problem folks are having with that? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/39 "2005-09-05T05:41:51Z")
If I were starving to death, I think I would _try_ to get arrested for looting. They have to feed you and give you water in jail. Beats dying in the street. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/40 "2005-09-05T09:19:25Z")
> [@Harriet the Spry](#): > > I agree with your overall point, but you are missing some things due to lack of local experience. Guns are by no means confined to a handful of gun shops. Here they are sold in Wal-Mart, for example. Not to mention that many people who did evacuate probably left guns in their homes. > > Also, AFAIK, it wasn’t like there was a specific jail or prison where criminals escaped from. New Orleans has a high crime rate, and the general criminal element was out and about, often already owning a gun or knowing where to get one. I missed this post earlier - it explains a lot. I forgot that guns are sold in supermarkets etc. Someone else confirmed there is a very high rate of crime in NO. These two points explain quite a bit about the nervousness of the authorities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013.md?page=3)