# What the hell is going on in New Orleans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013 "2005-09-04T05:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/41 "2005-09-05T09:39:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > And it may NOT be. Either way, no one has the right to steal it. Of course they dont have the right to steal. The point is that preventing theft is a minor concern compared to saving people from suffering and death. Anyone who values property above any persons life is psychotic. > [@John Mace](#): > > Look. The thing to do is to give local cops discretion to do what they think is best given the circumstances. Sometimes that will mean let the looters loot, and sometimes that will mean arrest the looters. > > If I were a cop and I saw a woman with two kids grabbing a few loafs of bread, I’d probably look the other way. If I saw 5 young males armed with basball bats breaking into an appliance store, I’d probably arrest them. However we have in this situation soldiers told to shot-to-kill. This is putting at risk innocent people, who should not be shot; as well as not-so-innocent looters who should also not be shot. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/42 "2005-09-05T10:34:30Z")
Remeber that the police ignored the looters and were told to do so until tyhe resuce work was being hindered by people who were shooting at the police and aid workers (the hospital shooting). It’s difficult to evacuate people when snipers are trying to kill them. From this moment onwards the police were directed to stop the looters, something that the state couldn’t be bothered with because they had more important things to do (i.e. save people). ---
**Author:** ![Vooodooochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/0ea827/32.png) [@Vooodooochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vooodooochile)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/43 "2005-09-05T10:44:33Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > Anyone who values property above any persons life is psychotic. Well, perhaps other people dont share your particular religous beliefs. Property ~is~ life. If you make $20 an hour, buy a stereo for $200, that stereo is 10 hours of your life. Someone stealing it is someone stealing the hours you spent creating that wealth for yourself. Yes, the priority is delivering food and helping people. In order to do that, looters need to be stopped. Little old ladies stuck in their houses are not likely to feel free to walk out to get help if a bunch of nutcases are raiding the local shop. Now, Im not religous in any way. If I were a business owner in N.O, stuck in my house taking care of my familly, I would want anyone looting my business to be shot, yes; and since I wouldnt be able to be there to do it myself, then its the gov’s job to do it for me. That business is my lifes work, its the food for my kids, their education; yes, I consider my life and that of my family more valuable than the life of someone trying to get a free ride. Of course my property is more valuable to me than the life of someone whom I had probably never met. If it were otherwise, that would make me a fucking lunatic. Now, if you have some weird religous belief that life and property are two completely seperate things, and if you have some weird religous belief that your lifes work is less valuable than the life of someone who wants to take it from you, thats great, you are perfectly free to allow yourself to be exploited and used by others as much as you want. As for myself, I see no ultimate difference tween a wild animal attacking me and/or my family and a looter stealing from my business. Both are examples of external biological organisms following their biologically ingrained motivations and environmentally learned tactics to survive. I hold no real animosity to either; both are just using the tactics they’ve learned in the past that work in the environments they are accutmoed to. Yet I will still, without hesitation, take any means necessary including killing to ensure the threat from either organism no longer exists. If you have religous beliefs that lead you to have a different view, thats great; but basing ones worldview on religon is whats psychotic. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/44 "2005-09-05T10:56:02Z")
New Orleans has ALWAYS been a dangerous place. Most hotel managers and cab drivers will tell you, as a tourist, to not stray out of the French Quarter. Now the criminal element is being pinched, many of them can’t evacuate for fear of being discovered. So, they are trapped like rats, and many of them will go down shooting. > **[Safest and Most Dangerous U.S. Cities, 2007](https://www.infoplease.com/us/cities/safest-and-most-dangerous-us-cities-2007)** > > The following table ranks the safest and most dangerous cities in the United States as of 2007. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/45 "2005-09-05T12:10:58Z")
> [@Vooodooochile](#): > > Well, perhaps other people dont share your particular religous beliefs. > –snip– > > Now, if you have some weird religous belief that life and property are two completely seperate things, and if you have some weird religous belief that your lifes work is less valuable than the life of someone who wants to take it from you, thats great, you are perfectly free to allow yourself to be exploited and used by others as much as you want. > > As for myself, I see no ultimate difference tween a wild animal attacking me and/or my family and a looter stealing from my business. Both are examples of external biological organisms following their biologically ingrained motivations and environmentally learned tactics to survive. I hold no real animosity to either; both are just using the tactics they’ve learned in the past that work in the environments they are accutmoed to. Yet I will still, without hesitation, take any means necessary including killing to ensure the threat from either organism no longer exists. > > If you have religous beliefs that lead you to have a different view, thats great; but basing ones worldview on religon is whats psychotic. I do not have a religious belief. I do however rate prevention of human suffering above protection of property and maintain that someone who rates the importance of property over human suffering suffers a personality disorder. Back at the ranch, it seems as **ccwaterback** confirms - N.O. is an inherently dangerous place. That answers the greater part of my original question. On the matter of poor crisis management, as I said earlier, the US government has been so obsessed with the irrational fear of terrorism that I bet it has lost the plot focussing on high risk events like this one. [Scientific American Oct 2001](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00060286-CB58-1315-8B5883414B7F0000). ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/46 "2005-09-05T13:19:44Z")
[Here’s an update on what’s happening in New Orleans.](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/coastguard.rescue/index.html) Is this also because of the crazy, depraved looters and killers, right? It has nothing at all to do with the inadequate response of local and federal government. That brand spanking new, expensive governmental agency-- Homeland Defense, is just too overwhelmed by the crazy, lawless poor of New Orleans to rescue people. Sure it’s been 7 days, but GODDAMN, those out-of-control residents with the guns that they stole from Wal-Mart! ---
**Author:** ![Vooodooochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/0ea827/32.png) [@Vooodooochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vooodooochile)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/47 "2005-09-05T14:07:20Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > I do not have a religious belief. I do however rate prevention of human suffering above protection of property and maintain that someone who rates the importance of property over human suffering suffers a personality disorder. The fact that you make a distinction between human suffering and property protection means that you cannot equate property with human life, even though without one there is no other. It means you think humans are something more-than or other-than material, which is religon. The fact that you cant seem to grok the reality that property protection ~is~ prevention of human suffering indicates to me that you have an ideological agenda rather than any real attempt to understand the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/48 "2005-09-05T14:25:24Z")
> [@Vooodooochile](#): > > The fact that you make a distinction between human suffering and property protection means that you cannot equate property with human life, even though without one there is no other. Um, huh? I don’t understand this. Of course there can be human life without property. There can be no human life without food, water and shelter. > [@](#): > > It means you think humans are something more-than or other-than material, which is religon. The fact that you cant seem to grok the reality that property protection ~is~ prevention of human suffering indicates to me that you have an ideological agenda rather than any real attempt to understand the situation. It seems to me it is you who have some ideological agenda. The cynical, you-are-what-you-own type ideology that leads to blaming the dead for daring to live in the same state as someone who would steal from Wal-Mart. You understanding of the situation is flawed by this ideology. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/49 "2005-09-05T15:16:25Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Emphasis added. Well this soft-hearted liberal thinks that, in an emergency situation, stealing food or formula to feed your kids isn’t wrong. Moreover in certain circumstances, _it would be a moral mandate_, IMO. > > **John apparently disagrees: property is more important than human life.** Interesting. > > As for the great majority of cases I’m guessing, I would agree that, “Stealing is wrong”. And I would add to that, “No kidding.” Emphasis added. Apparently you didn’t read my post: > [@John Mace](#): > > If I were a cop and I saw a woman with two kids grabbing a few loafs of bread, I’d probably look the other way. If I saw 5 young males armed with basball bats breaking into an appliance store, I’d probably arrest them. Were you mistaken, or were you deliberately misrepresenting my position? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/50 "2005-09-05T15:20:44Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > However we have in this situation soldiers told to shot-to-kill. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Vooodooochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/0ea827/32.png) [@Vooodooochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vooodooochile)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/51 "2005-09-05T16:30:46Z")
[QUOTE=Biggirl] > [@Vooodooochile](#): > > Um, huh? I don’t understand this. Of course there can be human life without property. There can be no human life without food, water and shelter. So youre carrying a bowl of water to your kid, someone slaps it out of your hand, you get upset…but you have no right to be, it wasnt your property, right? You build a sheltor, but its not yours? At some point, food water and shelter have to become your property or you will not be able to make use of them. You have to possess all three before you can use them. > [@](#): > > It seems to me it is you who have some ideological agenda. The cynical, you-are-what-you-own type ideology that leads to blaming the dead for daring to live in the same state as someone who would steal from Wal-Mart. Im sorry, but there is no ideology involved. No, you arent what you own, but yes you are what you do, and if you do nothing, you are nothing. If you do nothing that other people value, you have no value. This isnt ideology, its the lack of it. If you want to ~believe~ that all humans are worth equally as much yadda yadda yadda, thats fine but its a ~belief~, an ideology; something you adhere to with no empirical proof. Of course aid agencies are going to prioritize, and when they prioritize they are going to base those priorities (hopefully anyway) on real, material, quantifiable things, not a bunch of moralistic/ideological bullshit. As for blaming the dead? Well, that was an emotional leap if Ive ever seen one, but in general no. It depends on each individuals choices as to wether its their fault they died; Im more than sure a few died due to the decisons they made, others through no decision they made. But then if someone dies on the seen, I dont blame the ambulance driver either. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/52 "2005-09-05T16:49:43Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Cite? Not exactly “shoot to kill”, but very close: (Governor Blanco) “They have M-16s, and they’re locked and loaded,” Blanco said. “I have one message for these hoodlums: These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so if necessary, and I expect they will.” > **[President Bush Says Progress Being Made In Chaotic New Orleans](https://www.mtv.com/news/1508855/president-bush-says-progress-being-made-in-chaotic-new-orleans/)** > > Bush urges displaced residents to remain patient amidst turmoil. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/53 "2005-09-05T16:57:40Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > Not exactly “shoot to kill”, but very close: > > (Governor Blanco) > > “They have M-16s, and they’re locked and loaded,” Blanco said. “I have one message for these hoodlums: These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so if necessary, and I expect they will.” > > [http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1508855/20050902/index.jhtml?headlines=true](http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1508855/20050902/index.jhtml?headlines=true) I wouldn’t call that “close”. Saying that cops (or their stand-ins) know how to shoot to kill is just stating a fact. This was true before the hurricane, is true now, and will always be true. That’s a far cry from saying they have “orders” to shoot to kill. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/54 "2005-09-05T17:02:55Z")
“These troops know how to shoot and kill … and I expect they will” ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/55 "2005-09-05T17:08:37Z")
[QUOTE=Vooodooochile] > [@Biggirl](#): > > So youre carrying a bowl of water to your kid, someone slaps it out of your hand, you get upset…but you have no right to be, it wasnt your property, right? You build a sheltor, but its not yours? At some point, food water and shelter have to become your property or you will not be able to make use of them. You have to possess all three before you can use them. And this point is not during a catasrophe. At some point you have to stop worring about other people’s waterlogged property and start thinking about saving lives. And it is exactly this point when it becomes the ideology of the selfish. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/56 "2005-09-05T17:09:45Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > “These troops know how to shoot and kill … and I expect they will” How convenient that you left out “if necessary” in the quote. :rolleyes: That statement, containing the part you left out, is true everywhere in the US today. Does that mean all police everywhere or “close” to have orders to shoot to kill? ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/57 "2005-09-05T17:12:48Z")
Shoot to kill in New Orleans: [http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1451906.htm](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1451906.htm) [http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/we-are-out-here-like-pure-animals/2005/09/02/1125302714538.html](http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/we-are-out-here-like-pure-animals/2005/09/02/1125302714538.html) [http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16466908-23109,00.html](http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16466908-23109,00.html) [http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=347973](http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=347973) [http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000002073](http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000002073) Google “shoot to kill new orleans” for more. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/58 "2005-09-05T17:15:52Z")
Soldiers are taught to aim for center mass, whick is between the chest and stomach, around the solar plexus. They have a better chance of hitting their target that way. It’s harder to shoot someone with an M-16 and \not\ kill them. Cops, I don’t kknow where they’re taught to aim. But in a New Orleans situation, it’s tactically and logistically easier to shoot to kill. That way you don’t have the consideratins of providing medical attention to the wounded. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying it’s easier. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/59 "2005-09-05T17:23:30Z")
[Troops begin combat operations in New Orleans](http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1077495.php) > [@](#): > > “This place is going to look like Little Somalia,” Brig. Gen. Gary Jones, commander of the Louisiana National Guard’s Joint Task Force told Army Times Friday as hundreds of armed troops under his charge prepared to launch a massive citywide security mission from a staging area outside the Louisiana Superdome. “We’re going to go out and take this city back. This will be a combat operation to get this city under control.” ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/60 "2005-09-05T17:36:56Z")
[In the absence of information and outside assistance, groups of rich and poor banded together in the French Quarter, forming “tribes” and dividing up the labor. As some went down to the river to do the wash, others remained behind to protect property. In a bar, a bartender put near-perfect stitches into the torn ear of a robbery victim.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050904/ap_on_re_us/katrina_surviving_in_the_quarter_hk1) as well, [Former Bush adviser ‘consulting’ for KBR](http://www.dcexaminer.com/articles/2005/03/22/news/d_c_news/02newsdc23kkr.txt) [Halliburton (KBR) hired for storm cleanup](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013.md?page=4)