# What the hell is going on in New Orleans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013 "2005-09-04T05:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/61 "2005-09-05T17:44:22Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > [Halliburton (KBR) hired for storm cleanup](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685) They were hired to long before the start of this hurricane season. Ironic but not malicious. ---
**Author:** ![Vooodooochile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/0ea827/32.png) [@Vooodooochile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vooodooochile)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/62 "2005-09-05T17:48:57Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > [In the absence of information and outside assistance, groups of rich and poor banded together in the French Quarter, forming “tribes” and dividing up the labor. As some went down to the river to do the wash, others remained behind to protect property. In a bar, a bartender put near-perfect stitches into the torn ear of a robbery victim.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050904/ap_on_re_us/katrina_surviving_in_the_quarter_hk1) What selfish people, protecting property and doing laundry when there were people to be saved. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/63 "2005-09-05T18:51:37Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > Shoot to kill in New Orleans: > > [http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1451906.htm](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1451906.htm) > > [http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/we-are-out-here-like-pure-animals/2005/09/02/1125302714538.html](http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/we-are-out-here-like-pure-animals/2005/09/02/1125302714538.html) > > [http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16466908-23109,00.html](http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16466908-23109,00.html) > > [http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=347973](http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=347973) > > [http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000002073](http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000002073) > > Google “shoot to kill new orleans” for more. Sloppy, sloppy reporting. The troops being posted in N.O. have the “authorization” to shoot to kill if necessary. Once again, how is that different from the cops in my city today? They, too, have the authorization to shoot to kill if necessary. If they had “orders” to shoot to kill looters, then they’d be nothing else but shooting them. Big, big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/64 "2005-09-05T19:40:20Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > I dont have time to trawl through all the posts and news items, but I want to know what is behind the major SNAFU in New Orleans. Sorry that this is yet anothe NO thread. > > Why are people shooting at rescuers? **Because it is one of the most violent cities in the US and it appears that armed looters stayed behind.** > [@antechinus](#): > > Why are rescuers shooting innocent people\*? **They’re not.** > [@antechinus](#): > > Why are looters being stopped? I would have thought looting would be the least of the cities problems - many people are just trying to get food. **Look at the video listed above and then read the book “Lord of the Flies”.** > [@antechinus](#): > > Why on earth are refugees being raped\*? Are there prisoners on the loose? **Reread the book “Lord of the Flies”. You’re looking at gangs responding as you’d expect.** > [@antechinus](#): > > And the question every one else is asking. What happened to the disaster recovery plan? I work in risk management and crisis management - these cities in the huricane zone should have plans in place to deal with these events. \*\*If you look at the timeline you will see that 10,000 National Guard troops were deployed along the coast on Friday. Saturday the Mayor announced a mandatory evacuation and set up transportation for those who couldn’t leave. They were sent to 10 shelters. I’m not sure of 9 of them but the Superdome Stadium had little or no provisions. This is where the problem started. The shelters were IN THE CITY. New Orleans is below sea level and is surrounded by a 275 square mile lake to the North and the largest river in the US running through it. Those 2 bodies of water are connected by canal levees that are not designed to withstand anything beyond a level 3 hurricane. \*\* > [@antechinus](#): > > Implementation of such a plan was not evident. **And that’s your problem. Instead of busing the people who couldn’t leave to areas that were accessible for relief efforts, just the opposite happened. The rioting further delayed the process of relief by 2 days** > [@antechinus](#): > > This all sounds so bizarre. I would love to be enlightened. **Hope you’re enlightened.** \*[reference](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/09/03/rapes_killings_hit_katrina_refugees_in_new_orleans/) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/65 "2005-09-05T19:46:07Z")
> [@Vooodooochile](#): > > What selfish people, protecting property and doing laundry when there were people to be saved. What complete bastards they are! But really, I was posting some recent news articles to tell people “What the hell is going on in New Orleans” What did you think I was saying? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/66 "2005-09-05T19:49:00Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Were you mistaken, or were you deliberately misrepresenting my position? I was mistaken.[sup]1[/sup] _And I retracted my statement within 2 minutes of my original post_. (Post 33 followed post 32). I even added an apology, which stands. Why didn’t that warrent a mention? Are you deliberately misrepresenting my position? Please recall: I was responding to a remark by another poster, “Looting is looting. The concept of letting a criminal do whatever they want is what’s absurd.” IMO, this statement is far too categorical. It seems that you agree, notwithstanding the tone of _parts_ of post 31. > [@John Mace](#): > > Do you have any evidence that arresting looters was prioritized? I repeat: Did I imply that I did? Did I imply that the New Orleans PD has such priorities? No, I don’t think so. I did comment about the video: which appeared to show 2 constables (and various members of the citizenry) helping themselves to certain items at Walmart. And now I add: Were the assumptions embedded in your question mistaken, or were you deliberately misrepresenting my position? I’m guessing the former. Pot. Kettle. Black. [sup]1[/sup]This is what happens when you work off the “reply” button, delete parts of the post, and add a sentence at the last minute. Posts are often _assembled_: the conversational tone is often illusory. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/67 "2005-09-05T19:53:46Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > [http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/](http://www.zippyvideos.com/8911023771013466/countdown-looting-in-walmart/) > > Take a long look at the crazed looters. Then take a look at the crazed looters TRUCK packed 6 feet high. Too bad they didn’t drive out of the city during pre-looting rush hour traffic. Surely I’m not the only one to notice all the vehicle rooftops that were shown in the flood pictures on TV. My local newspaper had a picture of an apartment complex full of people on their balconies overlooking their flooded CARS. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/68 "2005-09-05T20:10:07Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > I repeat: Did I imply that I did? Did I imply that the New Orleans PD has such priorities? No, I don’t think so. I did comment about the video: which appeared to show 2 constables (and various members of the citizenry) helping themselves to certain items at Walmart. > > And now I add: Were the assumptions embedded in your question mistaken, or were you deliberately misrepresenting my position? I’m guessing the former. > > Pot. Kettle. Black. This is what I was responding to: > [@](#): > > More to the point, law enforcement and fire protection are currently stretched. Therefore, they must prioritize. Until the National Guard arrives in force, the cops should focus their limited resources on what is most essential. Unarmed thieves probably don’t constitute the greatest threat to public order. You claim they must prioritize and that looitng isn’t the greatest threat. So, as long as arresting looters isn’t the #1 priority, what exactly is your compaint? Are you equating “prioritizing” to “focusing on only one thing”? That 's not what the word means. It’s quite possible to have a list of prioirties, and since there is no evidence that arresting looters is #1 priority, I can’t see your point. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/69 "2005-09-05T20:33:18Z")
We can work this one out **John**. > [@silenus](#): > > Looting is looting. The concept of letting a criminal do whatever they want is what’s absurd. M4M: No, it’s not absurd. You let unarmed looters, “Do what they want”, when you have bigger fish to fry. Increasing security in the Superdome, for example, might have been a higher priority. Life \>\> Property. Yes, the situation is disturbing. Triage: disturbing. John Mace: You claim they must prioritize… I was not responding to the Police Chief of New Orleans. I was responding to the policy recommendations put forth by silenus. Ref: [The original controversial post (#23) by M4M](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6544309&postcount=23) My complaint with the authorities is that they didn’t send in the National Guard sooner. But that’s a separate point (made in post 12). ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/70 "2005-09-05T23:33:36Z")
> [@Vooodooochile](#): > > The fact that you make a distinction between human suffering and property protection means that you cannot equate property with human life, even though without one there is no other. It means you think humans are something more-than or other-than material, which is religon. The fact that you cant seem to grok the reality that property protection ~is~ prevention of human suffering indicates to me that you have an ideological agenda rather than any real attempt to understand the situation. Humans are something more than material - they have consiousness, they are sentient. Your lack of emotional intelligence leads you to determine that loss of a material thing, which is not required for survival, as causing more pain than direct harm or suffering. It is not through religion that someone arrives at the view that prevention of suffering is more important than the survival of, say, a plasma TV. This is an ethical view that normal humans hold - it is arrived at through empathy and self-awareness. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/71 "2005-09-05T23:37:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > **Hope you’re enlightened.** Thanks Magiver for the good summary. It has been a long time since I read Lord of the Flies, however I seem to recall that it took a bit longer than 2 days before the kids started going feral. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/72 "2005-09-05T23:47:55Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Do you have any evidence that arresting looters was prioritized? I realize this is jumping back up the thread a bit, but I wanted to address this point. Yes, arresting looters was prioritized. Bush was widely quoted as saying there would be zero tolerance for looting. Normally, this would be fine. However, in post-Katrina New Orleans the authorities were not addressing things like elderly and children without food, shelter, needed medicine, etc. To have a zero tolerance for looting when you are apparently tolerating that kind of suffering is offensive. On one hand, I can see controlling lawlessness as serving a greater good in some cases, and you addressed this also in some of your case by case points. But the zero tolerance statements were inflamatory and could be interpreted as messed up priorities. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/73 "2005-09-06T01:40:02Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > Thanks Magiver for the good summary. > > It has been a long time since I read Lord of the Flies, however I seem to recall that it took a bit longer than 2 days before the kids started going feral. It’s unfair to judge all of New Orleans by the people you see on the news. What you’re seeing are those families who are socially dependent on the government for survival. They went where they were told to go. The expectation is that the city would take care of them. For the most part that happened at the other relief sites, even though they were cut off by flooding. When you look at it from the perspective of the poor people in the city, the Superdome sounds like the place to ride out the storm. Many of these people have never been to a sporting event there because of the cost involved. 25,000 people showed up to a hurricane party with no beer. There wasn’t even a pot to piss in when they got there. I would also add that New Orleans is not strategically located near any other large cities and there are not a lot of roads leading into it. Despite that there were supplies pre-staged inland away from the hurricane. I know Mobile Alabama was one of the FEMA sites, which is about 2 ½ hours from New Orleans. I believe they had fan boats from Texas Park Rangers in the city on Friday, which isn’t bad considering they had to be hauled in. Maybe the Federal Government should have planned for the collapse of the levees. I’m not sure anyone, including the Mayor anticipated such a large percentage of people staying behind… Nobody planned on the riots. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/74 "2005-09-06T01:58:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Maybe the Federal Government should have planned for the collapse of the levees. According to Lieutenant General Carl Strock, commander of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, they did have a plan for [dealing with the collapse of the levees](http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050902-3847.html): > [@](#): > > The challenge we faced was that we had two breaches in the levees on the Lake Pontchartrain side. These levees were at 17th Street and at the London Avenue Canal. The greatest challenge here, I suppose, was trying to understand the nature of the problem we faced, because like everyone, we had evacuated the city, and it was only after the storm had passed that we began to get out and assess what was going on. And even then, as you understand, communications and access were very difficult. So even getting to the site and understanding what we face was a challenge for us. > And then after understanding and setting a plan in foot – **and by the way, we do have a plan on the shelf in anticipation of this** – mobilizing the equipment, the people and material to go out and address the problem was also a challenge, because the site was essentially completely surrounded by water. > The approach we took was threefold:… [Lack of air transport and sandbags held it up](http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/090105ccjrwwlthousandsdrowned.13bc8d1d.html) until after the lake and city water levels [equalized on wednesday](http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/breaking_news/12517261.htm) (Aug 31); at which point the task became less time critical. They filled the [lake Ponchartrain gap today.](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/05/neworleans.levees/) Perhaps their plan could have included leaving a few spotters in well protected places around the city, prefilling a few sandbags, and pulling in some Chinooks from across the country. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/75 "2005-09-06T01:58:06Z")
Not sure what the point of your post is **Magiver**. Were you replying to what you quoted from me? But I agree with you - the Federal Government should have planned for the collapse of the levees. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/76 "2005-09-06T02:02:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Maybe the Federal Government should have planned for the collapse of the levees. Hm. Could be true. The Wikipedia link show 9 news articles, in journals ranging from Scientific American to the New Orleans Times-Picayune detailing this sort of scenario. [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_of_hurricane_risk_for_New_Orleans). > [@](#): > > I’m not sure anyone, including the Mayor anticipated such a large percentage of people staying behind… Nobody planned on the riots. Really. Let’s quote the New York Times, Sunday, p. 19: "But, as always, many did not [evacuate]. This surprised exactly no one. In a 2003 Louisiana State University poll, 31 percent of New Orleans residents said they would stay in the city even if a Category 4 hurricane struck. Many stayed because they felt they had no choice." The Riots: Well golly gee, it wasn’t wholly unprecidented, was it? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/77 "2005-09-06T02:31:56Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Perhaps their plan could have included leaving a few spotters in well protected places around the city, prefilling a few sandbags, and pulling in some Chinooks from across the country. From an engineering POV I would have installed flood gates on ALL the canals. They could have shut the lake off like a faucet spigot before the storm even hit. I agree, Chinooks would have been nice. However, People see the huge machines used by the Coast Guard and think we have an unlimited supply of them. They’re still needed where they’re staged for normal sea rescue. They could have used more of them at any rate. There was a whole building full of senior citizens that didn’t make it out. Sad. They should have been moved before the hurricane and there’s no excuse for not doing it. That should have been done privately with a couple of phone calls. I can’t think of any city that couldn’t cough up a couple dozen volunteers with cars. Sandbags wouldn’t have helped the levees (IMO) because it was structural failure of the walls which consisted of concrete-over-piling. If you catch a picture of it on the news you’ll understand why. The structures popped like a baloon. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/78 "2005-09-06T02:39:14Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Hm. Could be true. The Wikipedia link show 9 news articles, in journals ranging from Scientific American to the New Orleans Times-Picayune detailing this sort of scenario. [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_of_hurricane_risk_for_New_Orleans). Really. Let’s quote the New York Times, Sunday, p. 19: > > "But, as always, many did not [evacuate]. This surprised exactly no one. In a 2003 Louisiana State University poll, 31 percent of New Orleans residents said they would stay in the city even if a Category 4 hurricane struck. > > Many stayed because they felt they had no choice." > > The Riots: Well golly gee, it wasn’t wholly unprecidented, was it? The Mayor’s background didn’t really prepare him for this kind of event. He was a cable TV executive who probably excelled at budgets and what-not. I haven’t heard anything about the Governor’s exploits in all of this. Not sure who calls in the militia but that was delayed for day. You know, 31% may end up being on the low side. They evacuated well over 10% and there are still a lot of people staying behind. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/79 "2005-09-06T02:54:52Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > Not sure what the point of your post is **Magiver**. Were you replying to what you quoted from me? > > But I agree with you - the Federal Government should have planned for the collapse of the levees. After rereading it my last post it sounded accusatory toward you, which was not my intent. I guess what I was trying to say is that the news presented things in a bright but narrow light and people aren’t seeing the big picture. A lot of coordinated manpower/material went into this before the hurricane struck and none of this is presented on the news. Instead, you see the United States government pitted against a huge natural disaster and the implication is that nothing is being done. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013/80 "2005-09-06T04:44:09Z")
I have no doubt that there have been some very nasty things going on in New Orleans, but a new report in the Guardian, of all places, says that the worst stories [can’t be verified.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1563532,00.html) > [@](#): > > New Orleans police have been unable to confirm the tale of the raped child, or indeed any of the reports of rapes, in the Superdome and convention centre. New Orleans police chief Eddie Compass said last night: “We don’t have any substantiated rapes. We will investigate if the individuals come forward.” And while many claim they happened, no witnesses, survivors or survivors’ relatives have come forward…Nor has the source for the story of the murdered babies, or indeed their bodies, been found. And while the floor of the convention centre toilets were indeed covered in excrement, the Guardian found no corpses. I hope they’re right. I also heard that a little boy was raped and that National Guardsmen took him and threw him off a balcony to kill him. Uh huh. Name, rank, serial numbers, please. And the body of the murdered children or rapist would be helpful too. I hope most of the worst stories turn out to be just rumors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-new-orleans/320013.md?page=3)