# What the hell is going on in Paris? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 3, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347 "2005-11-03T20:31:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/41 "2005-11-05T18:23:42Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Those wacky Pilgrims, bringing their flaky hybrid patchwork monotheism to the New World. They’ll never make it over there. > Stranger I hope not. I’m all with you stranger. But many of them are already there. ( ☹ = sad) ---
**Author:** ![suezeekay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@suezeekay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suezeekay)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/42 "2005-11-05T18:50:18Z")
In the U.S. even if you have become a citizen, if you commit a felony you can be deported. Hopefully, France will deport the people they have arrested so they can go back to their own country, especially if they now find it so bad in France that they will burn, rob, terrorize and destroy what they initially thought was better. I think the government could stop the riots, but the actions they would have to take would make them targets for criticism. That, or spend billions of dollars on housing, jobs, social benefits, and still have them hate the French because they want to take their former way of life into a new country and isolate themselves and lash out at anyone who doesn’t allow them to abuse women, etc. There is prejudice against people who don’t speak your language and don’t have your customs or share your religion. That’s reality. I believe that if you want the benefits of improved economic and political circumstances don’t go to another country if you can’t accept and adapt to their way of life. I don’t believe there is any god-given right that after accepting the hospitality of a country you then riot in the streets to change it. Stay in your own country and change it. Or stay there and practice your religion in the way that you desire. Don’t come to my country and use up our resources to change my country into the sorry mess that you came from. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/43 "2005-11-05T21:41:20Z")
Wow, speechless ☹ **suezeekay** this is the first time I’ve seen a post of yours and well, it more than annoyed me quite frankly but I’m choosing to think your attitude stems from a real ignorance about the facts of this case and I’ll try and keep my reply civil. I’d like to quote from a post I made in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343239) “The current problems are in the suburbs … the youth involved are the offspring of a previous generation of immigrants. Like many European countries France has a hard time finding work and hope to give young people who have grown up in relative poverty. I guess if you (are made to) feel like an outsider too the alienation just grows.” Which country would you suggest these people to go back to exactly ? The Parisien paper today reported that most of the ‘rioters’ are aged 15 - 24 and uneployed or suspended from state education. They were born and brought up here, the country they consider home has failed to give them a sense of worth or hope for the future. Your comments don’t make any sense to me. > [@](#): > > … still have them hate the French because they want to take their former way of life into a new country and isolate themselves and lash out at anyone who doesn’t allow them to abuse women, etc. The pêople involved in the riots are not protesting against or for any particular cause or law; they are simply young kids with nothing better to do but express their frustration by burning cars and trying to outdo their ‘rivals’ from the next suburb along. Their ‘isolation’ is not a choice, a community who has chosen to live outside French society, but a natural consequence of the economic and social conditions which exsist in the greater Paris area - for example the rapid construction of large scale housing to cope with the post war population growth, high unemployment levels, poor provision of transport and support services. Your casual non sequitor about abusing women doesn’t even merit the dignity of a response. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/44 "2005-11-05T21:47:47Z")
“Effects of L.A. Riots Reach Across the Ocean”, San Francisco Chronicle, Jun 21, 1992 (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > … the consensus of French pundits is that **something on the scale of the Los Angeles riots could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place** with a much stronger commitment to social welfare programs. > > Jean Daniel, editor of the weekly Le Nouvel Observateur magazine, bible of the intellectual left, wrote an essay on the Los Angeles events titled “Is It Possible in France?” … > > But, Daniel concluded that France’s biggest advantage in avoiding racial and class tensions is its extensive social programs, which essentially guarantee free education and health care for life as well as generous allowances for the unemployed. **“France can take comfort in the major, incontestable fact that its social laws are a thousand times more protective than in New York or Los Angeles,”** commented Daniel. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/45 "2005-11-05T22:02:04Z")
“The French Ask: Can L.A. Happen Here?; Alienated Immigrant Population, Class Differences Stir Worries of Urban Strife”, The Washington Post, May 12, 1992 (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > In the aftermath of the Los Angeles riots, President Francois Mitterrand said in a radio interview … that **the violent turmoil set off by the court verdict was actually the result of a “conservative society” governed by Presidents Reagan and Bush for the last 12 years.** “There can be no comparison between us and what may happen elsewhere,” Mitterrand said, “for France is the country where the level of social protection is the highest in the world.” > > Bernard Tapie, a self-made Marseilles millionaire who recently was named minister for urban affairs, also emphasized French welfare benefits as a prescription against riots, “contrary to the United States, where virtually no minimal assistance is given to people who live in the ghettos.” > > Tapie said on French radio that social turmoil here was implausible because “nobody in France can be called totally impoverished” and the country was “practically free of crack, that drug that makes you crazy.” > > But Jean Poperen, a former Socialist minister, warned that France “was on the same slippery slope” as the United States in terms of racial and class disparities and should not discount “a phenomenon of the same magnitude” as the Los Angeles riots. ---
**Author:** ![suezeekay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@suezeekay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suezeekay)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/46 "2005-11-06T01:40:28Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > Wow, speechless ☹ > **suezeekay** this is the first time I’ve seen a post of yours and well, it more than annoyed me quite frankly but I’m choosing to think your attitude stems from a real ignorance about the facts of this case and I’ll try and keep my reply civil. I’d like to quote from a post I made in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343239) > > “The current problems are in the suburbs … the youth involved are the offspring of a previous generation of immigrants. Like many European countries France has a hard time finding work and hope to give young people who have grown up in relative poverty. I guess if you (are made to) feel like an outsider too the alienation just grows.” > > Which country would you suggest these people to go back to exactly ? The Parisien paper today reported that most of the ‘rioters’ are aged 15 - 24 and uneployed or suspended from state education. They were born and brought up here, the country they consider home has failed to give them a sense of worth or hope for the future. > Your comments don’t make any sense to me. The pêople involved in the riots are not protesting against or for any particular cause or law; they are simply young kids with nothing better to do but express their frustration by burning cars and trying to outdo their ‘rivals’ from the next suburb along. Their ‘isolation’ is not a choice, a community who has chosen to live outside French society, but a natural consequence of the economic and social conditions which exsist in the greater Paris area - for example the rapid construction of large scale housing to cope with the post war population growth, high unemployment levels, poor provision of transport and support services. Your casual non sequitor about abusing women doesn’t even merit the dignity of a response. Oh, get over it. People who think they are taking the moral high ground are always shocked when people disagree with them. I’m afraid that a government can’t “give” you a sense of worth or hope for the future. If they can’t stay in school, it looks to me that they have pretty much made their own decisions about where their life is headed. Normal people, even poor ones, don’t burn old ladies or destroy other people’s property in order to raise their self-esteem. I live in a place where we don’t even have a taxi or a bus system. We have one grocery store. People work three small jobs to support their families, when they can find a job that is. I don’t see them blaming the government or rioting. And if these people feel isolated what about their parent’s responsiblity to integrate themselves into the community? If it’s like it is here, they remain apart, never learn english (French in their case) and stay away from anyone who doesn’t follow their beliefs. You didn’t mention the word Muslim, but the papers here say they are Muslim youths. That’s why I made the remark about abusing women. I don’t agree with forced marriage, only seeing other men in the presence of relatives, wearing any sort of cover on my head, killing women because they commit adultry or have sex before marriage. I don’t like those beliefs and wouldn’t want to live in a community with those people. that’s why I said they should stay in their own country because to come to a country where they are going to come full-force against a culture that rejects those beliefs is asking for major trouble. I think their behavior is despicable and immoral and wrong. I don’t care how many excuses you come up with. Lots of people can find solutions to the problems in their lives without commiting such terrible acts. If you want to say it’s your fault go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/47 "2005-11-06T02:20:21Z")
> [@suezeekay](#): > > You didn’t mention the word Muslim, but the papers here say they are Muslim youths. That’s why I made the remark about abusing women. I don’t agree with forced marriage, only seeing other men in the presence of relatives, wearing any sort of cover on my head, killing women because they commit adultry or have sex before marriage. I don’t like those beliefs and wouldn’t want to live in a community with those people. that’s why I said they should stay in their own country because to come to a country where they are going to come full-force against a culture that rejects those beliefs is asking for major trouble. Yes, because we all know only Muslims abuse women. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Batman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@The\_Batman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Batman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/48 "2005-11-06T06:01:58Z")
By Cat Jones: > [@](#): > > At present the CRS (riot police) are deployed but often choosing to withdraw rather than enflame things further. French forces retreating? How odd. Seriuosly though how is withdrawing and let a **10 day old** riot continue better for the situation? Because it might be dangerous to confront them? They are setting buildings, cars and people on fire! They are getting cocky and trying to one-up each other! It’s already as dangerous as it’s going to get and its only pure blind luck someone hasn’t died yet. “Why” isn’t a question people should be asking at this point. On the first day yes, same on the second and maybe on the third, but on the tenth day? :rolleyes: "How " is the question of the day. How do you end it? The same way you end every riot, with cops forcing curfews themselves not having la mamá and le papá asking little pierre to please stay home tonight and not torch ambulances. They should confront the rioters not back away from them. That’s pretty much the reason why it has escalated IMHO, because they don’t feel threatened by police forces. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/49 "2005-11-06T08:51:59Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Then you fucking obey the rules of your hosts - NO EXCEPTIONS - or you’re out! And the fact that most of the kids rioting were born in France doesn’t give you any trouble in suggesting such simplistic attitudes? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2005, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/50 "2005-11-06T08:53:04Z")
> [@suezeekay](#): > > You didn’t mention the word Muslim, but the papers here say they are Muslim youths. That’s why I made the remark about abusing women. I don’t agree with forced marriage, only seeing other men in the presence of relatives, wearing any sort of cover on my head, killing women because they commit adultry or have sex before marriage. I don’t like those beliefs and wouldn’t want to live in a community with those people. You really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about, do you? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/51 "2005-11-07T13:19:09Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > And the fact that most of the kids rioting were born in France doesn’t give you any trouble in suggesting such simplistic attitudes? What, these kids don’t have parents? Where’s the accountability for one’s actions? Insurrection should have a steep price, citizens or not. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/52 "2005-11-07T14:03:28Z")
[I was wrong. It’s not under control](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051107/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_111) It’s spreading to other cities. It doesn’t seem the police can stop this yet. Is there no curfew imposed? They’re attacking day care centers and housing projects. Yikes…I’m beginning to wonder if there’s not something more going on here. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/53 "2005-11-07T15:51:26Z")
I think it’s a given that people who are accorded a degree of dignity, and have at least some hope of a better future, are unlikely to riot. A country can only prop itself up by riding on the backs of the poor for so long; at some point, all hell is going to break loose. Western Europe has been importing cheap labor from Africa and the middle east for some time now, and treated the immigrants badly for just as long. These riots should come as no surprise. I don’t have a working knowledge of the way Europeans think. I know there are strong currents of nationalism and post-colonial superiority that don’t quite translate to my experience. But, as an American, I do have some knowledge of what can happen when a group of people is treated like crap. Unfortunately, nothing good ever comes out of something like this unless the people who are participating in the unrest find effective leadership. One has to hope that maybe there’s a Martin Luther King there waiting for history to call. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/54 "2005-11-07T16:17:49Z")
Why the Hell haven’t the damn French cops broken out the live ammunition yet? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/55 "2005-11-07T16:52:28Z")
[300 towns???](http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/07/D8DNMVOO3.html) I had to laugh at this quote: > [@](#): > > the French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm. I had an _Animal House_ flashback, where Kevin Bacon is standing on the sidewalk during the parade, screaming “Be calm! All is well!” while the town riots around him. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/56 "2005-11-07T18:41:11Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > What, these kids don’t have parents? Where’s the accountability for one’s actions? Insurrection should have a steep price, citizens or not. Huh? You’re saying that the punishment meeted out to French citizens should vary according to their parents’ place of birth? And if they’ve lived their whole lives in France, the ‘then you’re out’ bit becomes awkward…where’ya gonna send them? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/57 "2005-11-07T18:43:03Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Why the Hell haven’t the damn French cops broken out the live ammunition yet? Is that a serious question? This whole thing kicked off after a couple of kids ended up dead in disputed circumstances involving the police. A few more dead guys would _really_ calm things down :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/58 "2005-11-07T18:45:16Z")
[This column](http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html) had an interesting theory about why France wasn’t gung-ho on the war in Iraq. Maybe one of the reasons was > [@](#): > > If you had millions of seething unassimilated Muslim youths in lawless suburbs ringing every major city, would you be so eager to send your troops into an Arab country fighting alongside the Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/59 "2005-11-07T18:58:00Z")
Question for anyone local to Paris. . .has any of this reached “Charenton” as far as you know? My sister lives there. I just got back from a vacation, and haven’t talked to her. I emailed her today, but probably after she left work. I couldn’t find a map of places this has affected. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347/60 "2005-11-07T18:59:34Z")
Actually, I just found this map. . . > **[Le Monde - Toute l’actualité en continu](https://www.lemonde.fr/)** > > International, Economie, Environnement … La référence, partout, tout le temps. One of those spots is pretty close, actually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-paris/329347.md?page=4)