What the hell is going on in Paris?

[carnivorousplant]

Anyone know how to google how many cars are burned in, say, Alabama each day?

[Magiver]

@slaphead

I think you may be underrating the impact of percieved differences in opportunity. When everyone is poor, there tends to be greater degree of social cohesion because everyone is facing the same dilemmas. If everyone is wealthy, there tend to be enough luxuries to lubricate any friction.

Not only do I not underrate the impact of perceived differences that was my point. Perceived being the key word. I’m 2nd generation US born. My Grandparents were boat people who came over with the mindset needed to move forward. The scenario is probably identical to the immigrants in France with the exception of a social net. I accept the concept that there was a greater degree of social cohesion because a majority of my parent’s generation shared the same conditions.

@slaphead

When you have a big bunch of poor people who live in the middle of a wealthy society and believe they are denied an fair opportunity to participate, it is likely there will be ongoing social problems. When there is an unemployment rate of anything up to 40% among young males in the disaffected group, you are GUARANTEED problems. It’s an old-established sequence which has been played out in the US, UK, France and Australia recently, and probably in many countries where I haven’t heard about it. Good intentions, mindset, ethnicity, hard work, etc. have nothing to do with it, IMHO. It’s like an equation: Relative Poverty + Social Exclusion + Discrimination + Lack of Improvement + Random Trigger == Self-Destructive Outburst of pointless violence. This has been cooking up for over 25 years, so it’s no surprise it’s been pretty large-scale.

Again, I agree with your premise that such conditions breed problems. I would counter that government intervention made it worse. IMHO, long term social welfare is the engine that drives this train. As each generation descends into government subsistence there is a loss of the social structure necessary to survive in the real world. The perception that education will not elevate one’s financial situation becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The end result is an angry, stupid child who becomes an angry stupid biological parent. All this at the expense of the taxpayer. This raises the taxes on those who are taxable, which further reduces the private funding needed for expansion. I feel fortunate that my Grandparents never suffered the hell of Welfare. What little existed at the time was refused as the ultimate indignation. The concept that any work was more honorable than welfare was a driving force that allowed each generation to move forward (which they did).

I cast my stones, not at the rioters, but at the social welfare that created them. Sadly, letting the situation spin out of control only adds to the tax burden, which will ultimately decrease funds for investment. The French unemployment rate will only increase because of the chaos of the last 2 ½ weeks.

@slaphead

Incidentally, I dread to think what car insurance premiums are like in France with that many cars going up in smoke regularly, especially when you consider that Parisians normally drive as if they want to wreck as many cars as possible - maybe this is why Renault have had a profitable few years?

If its anything like insurance in the US then the premium is linked to location as well as driving records. The poor get screwed at the hands of the next generation.

[hajario]

@Magiver

If its anything like insurance in the US then the premium is linked to location as well as driving records. The poor get screwed at the hands of the next generation.

Actually, if it is anything like the US, cars destroyed by “civil unrest” are not covered by insurance.

Excellent couple of posts but the way, Magiver.

[slaphead]

@Magiver

The scenario is probably identical to the immigrants in France with the exception of a social net.

Very good post, but I think there are two other exceptions - firstly the US is a more diverse and accommodating society than many, and secondly has experience a greater degree of economic progress than any other country in the developed world. The first means being able to participate fairly, the second means rising living standards even for those on the bottom of the heap.

If your grandparents (and your parents, and you, and your kids) had been largely locked out of the economy, and the US had experienced several decades-long periods of economic stagnation, then things may have worked out differently for your family.

Social welfare is a BIG influencer, but I dont think it is the be-all and end-all that many people think it is. For instance, you mention

@Magiver

the hell of Welfare.

This seems a bit emotionally loaded, and makes me go because it doesn’t make any sense to me. If you mean ‘remaining long-term in a condition of dependency because there are no economic opportunites or handouts pay better than work’, then I agree, but that is not necessarily the fault of social welfare as such. That’s the fault of an inappropriately high level of handouts, or a malfunctioning economy, or an overly divided society, or some combination of such. Welfare may make the situation worse, or better, or cause longer-term harm in the process of preventing short-term issues, or whatever, but it’s not usually the sole cause of the problem. Welfare reform is needed pretty much everywhere, but in the case of France it might be more useful to introduce some sort of anti-discrimination measures and also try to get the economy moving again.

I just find it hard to imagine that one could improve slums like the ones in France or the more deprived areas of the US just by tearing up the welfare state - you’d be more likely to cause a bigger explosion than the one which is just now calming down.

[clairobscur]

@hajario

Actually, if it is anything like the US, cars destroyed by “civil unrest” are not covered by insurance.

Apparently, it’s the same here in most cases. However, many people here are insured by “mutuelles” which are non-profit insurers sort of “owned” by the insured themselves. These at least announced that they would pay for the damages anyway.