# What the Hell is it with Republicans and School Lunches? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 3, 2001, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199 "2001-05-03T12:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/1 "2001-05-03T12:01:17Z")
What’s the deal? When Reagan announced ketchup was a vegetable, I thought it made him look callous and stupid. Did this change, widely mocked in the media, really save big business that much money? With the high costs of poor preventive medicine, did it do any favours for society? When Bush repealled Salmonella testing for school meat at the insistence of the lobbies, did he do anything apart from looking even less compassionate? Could his timing have been more inoportune? And while such a change was easily mocked and overturned, what does this say about his priorities? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/2 "2001-05-03T13:23:53Z")
And now ketchup’s had its revenge – Reagan’s a vegetable too! [sub]Sorry – that’s not very nice.[/sub] Anyhow, Margaret Thatcher had an equally notable record, becoming known as “Milksnatcher Thatcher” for her compassionate policies on subsidized school food. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/3 "2001-05-03T13:33:11Z")
Sigh. Bush did _not_ end salmonella testing of school-bound meat. A low level staffer in some agency somewhere released a proposal that had been sitting around forever, and higher level folks disavowed it within hours. New administrations do stupid stuff like that sometimes, on account of they don’t have the whole bureaucracy thing down yet. They did it again, on a higher level, yesterday with military contacts with China. They’ll get better at the whole bureaucracy thing, just as the Clinton administration did. As to school lunches, we hate them because when we were young we had to bring brown-bag (or worse, lunch-box) lunches from home, uphill in the snow both ways, to school. And our mothers only ever gave us sand to eat. And we _liked_ it that way! ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/4 "2001-05-03T13:42:21Z")
The Reagan administration’s proposal to call ketchup a vegetable for school lunch purposes was never put into effect, either. It was, deservedly in my opinion, ridiculed to death - among others by Senator John Heinz (R-PA), and yes, we’re talking _that_ Heinz family here. “My family knows something about ketchup, Mr. President.” The school lunch plan also proposed vegetabilizing pickle relish. Why does everyone forget poor, neglected pickle relish? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/5 "2001-05-04T11:53:36Z")
Of course you can believe the low-level staffer thing if you want. But how many of Bush’s decisions are being made by low life Staphs? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/6 "2001-05-04T12:01:21Z")
There ya go, Doc P. Two highly specific pieces of your ignorance killed right here in MPSIMS. I suggest, however, if you wish to continue your rant against the president, you take it to a different forum. The BBQ pit would be good. The TM’s will even provide the sauce, I’m sure. I wonder if BBQ sauce was considered a vegetable under the Reagan proposal, too. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/7 "2001-05-04T12:22:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > \*\* > > New administrations do stupid stuff like that sometimes, on account of they don’t have the whole bureaucracy thing down yet. I hope I’m not overreaching here, but I’m not sure I follow this. How can his staff be new to bureaucracy? Wasn’t he a governor for several years? I don’t think we’re talking about a rookie here. Of course, by that same definition, Clinton wasn’t ‘new,’ either. I’m just not so sure you can blame the ‘stupid stuff’ on inexperience, and that goes both for this administration and for the previous administration. > [@](#): > > As to school lunches, we hate them because when we were young we had to bring brown-bag (or worse, lunch-box) lunches from home, uphill in the snow both ways, to school. And our mothers only ever gave us sand to eat. And we _liked_ it that way! \*\* Well heck, **I** don’t hate 'em. So kids have more options now; makes no never mind to me. But you’re right about the sand! Only ours was landfill. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/8 "2001-05-04T15:02:33Z")
jr8, that may not have been very nice, but it was without question one of the best one-liners I’ve ever seen on the boards. Snort. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/9 "2001-05-04T15:45:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > \*\*jr8, that may not have been very nice, but it was without question one of the best one-liners I’ve ever seen on the boards. Snort. \*\* Thenk kyew – I aims to please. Back on topic, I don’t remember which (if either) party was specifically responsible for this bit of idiocy, but wasn’t it the Georgia legislature who a few years back was simultaneously considering 1) cutting funding for HeadStart (the free breakfast for low income kids thing), and 2) giving out free Mozart CDs to children (because some study had said listening to Mozart improved test scores)? Amazing… ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/10 "2001-05-04T16:01:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > \*\*2) giving out free Mozart CDs to children (because some study had said listening to Mozart improved test scores)? \*\* Well, _I_ would’ve supported this proposal…the hell with the politicians’ reasoning, just to get Mozart’s music into the hands of some kids who might not otherwise ever hear it. The few thousand bucks the program would have cost seem well worth it, even if only a few hundred kids get turned onto music. “Zeke Haney was born on his father’s pig farm in East Jesus, Georgia, in 1998. Today the 24-year-old Julliard-trained Haney will direct _Das Rheingold_, the first opera in _The Ring of the Niebelung_, as the first U.S.-born conductor ever to undertake a Bayreuth production of Richard Wagner’s Ring Cycle.” ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/11 "2001-05-04T16:04:02Z")
I dunno about the lunch thing, but one of ex-Governor (and present Senator) Zell Miller (D-GA) 's wackier proposals was for a program to give every mother who gave birth in Georgia a free Beethoven CD (not Mozart) , because studies had “proved” that listening to classical music when you were too young to understand or even remember it somehow corresponded with faster reading comprehension. Miller is, in theory, a Democrat. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/12 "2001-05-04T16:05:16Z")
Whoops! The above comment was NOT meant as a slam against the American South. Please change “Julliard” to “Duke,” and note that the correspondant realizes that pig farms also exist in New Hampshire. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/13 "2001-05-04T16:26:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Some Guy \* > \*\*I dunno about the lunch thing, but one of ex-Governor (and present Senator) Zell Miller (D-GA) 's wackier proposals was for a program to give every mother who gave birth in Georgia a free Beethoven CD (not Mozart) , because studies had “proved” that listening to classical music when you were too young to understand or even remember it somehow corresponded with faster reading comprehension. > > Miller is, in theory, a Democrat. > > Sorry for the hijack. \*\* Not at all; your insertion of facts into my vague recollections is much appreciated. Yes, I’m all for giving classical CDs to those who might not otherwise hear that sort of thing, but if the question is whether to spend public funding on that or on ensuring that poor children receive adequate nutrition, I’ll vote for the latter option. (Not that they were linked, mind you.) ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/14 "2001-05-04T17:14:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > **if the question is whether to spend public funding on that or on ensuring that poor children receive adequate nutrition, I’ll vote for the latter option** I agree with you there. Of course, it’s possible that a big frickin’ corporation might be willing to unload an assortment of its music division’s not-so-profitable classical CDs in order to make warehouse space for more Brittany Spears, plus reap excellent PR, by DONATING to the cause. ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/15 "2001-05-04T18:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Some Guy \* > \*\*I dunno about the lunch thing, but one of ex-Governor (and present Senator) Zell Miller (D-GA) 's wackier proposals was for a program to give every mother who gave birth in Georgia a free Beethoven CD (not Mozart) , because studies had “proved” that listening to classical music when you were too young to understand or even remember it somehow corresponded with faster reading comprehension. > > Miller is, in theory, a Democrat. > > Sorry for the hijack. \*\* I don’t see anything wrong with this either. I’m not sure why exactly you said “studies had ‘proved’ that listening…” becasuse, well they have. I did my senior research project on how music affects the brain of small children. Their is plenty of information out there if your interested, just do a search on google. In short, listening to classical music increases spatial reasoning skills, reading comp., and math skills. Unfortunatly my teacher kept my paper so I can’t tell you all of the benefits, but dishing out a couple grand to give out some CD’s I feel is a strong investment in human captial. ---
**Author:** ![darian00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@darian00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/darian00)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/16 "2001-05-05T13:52:45Z")
WARNING:.LONG POST _putting on flame-retardent suit, just in case_ For the record, I’m not a Republican. I’m a Libertarian. I believe the federal government needs to stick within the bounds set by the Constitution, and any federal program outside of them, because the Constitution SPECIFICALLY states that ANYTHING NOT specifically stated within itself is reserved for the States to do, is unconstitutional. > [@](#): > > The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. _setting gunsights on the Federal Department of Education (which, by the way, is NOT explicitly spelled out in the Constitution)_ First off, since the department of Education, along with a whole SLEW of other federal programs are not explicitly stated in the Constitution, they are illegal and have no force. However, because these programs (welfare, social security, Medicaid, etc…) have been with us since Roosevelt’s New Deal (the most socialist legislation we’ve had TO DATE), we’ve gotten used to them. There is now a market for state schools, state medical care, and state pension, and the power-hungry federal government is only too happy to provide. Okay, here’s the deal with school lunches… Providing a state-funded school lunch to low-income families is a noble gesture, to be sure. But there are several intrinsic flaws with this. First off, if you’re not going to feed everyone, then you shouldn’t feed anyone. This is discrimination because of social situation. This contributes to the problem we have with so-called “class warfare”. The poor kids feel bad because they can’t afford to bring a lunch. So they go to school and eat grease-saturated, high fat, generally really bad food that your tax dollars pay for. The rich kids have the money to feed themselves, the state figures, so they don’t get jack. However, their parents are forced to pay higher taxes to feed the poor kids, and they resent the poor for it. Their resent, however, is misplaced. They’re paying higher taxes to the Federal government to fund a program it is constitutionally forbidden to exercise. This brings us to the second problem. The states are not forbidden to do any of this. They are not forbidden to have state schools, have school lunch programs, or any other of these social programs. But they don’t. Why not? Because the Federal government beat them to the punch. Bush was right to try to get rid of the school lunch program. But he needs to go farther. The department of Education simply has to go. The Federal government has no business trying to educate the kids. Ever since the department of Education was created, it has been getting more and more money to fix itself. Everyone knows private schools do a better job. Why? Because they need your money! But people who want their kid to go to a private school has to pay for their child’s education twice! State schools, however, are funded by your tax dollars that you have no control over. Regardless of how poorly your local school performs, you have to pay for it. There is no way around it, other than to stop paying your taxes. And I’m sure we all know what happens to us when we do that. ---
**Author:** ![Jus\_lookin\_Round](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@Jus\_lookin\_Round](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jus_lookin_Round)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/17 "2001-05-05T15:31:41Z")
Dittos Darian00 !!! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/18 "2001-05-05T19:15:00Z")
Um, not all private schools do better-they’re usually hurting for money. Well, your parochial schools, that is. And many of them like Catholic schools will not teach a lot of subjects. I like how so many strict constructionists ignore the 9th ammendment is it? That there are other rights and things that are not specifically listed, that we have a right to? I’m sorry, but…libertarianism makes me queasy. ---
**Author:** ![darian00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@darian00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/darian00)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/19 "2001-05-05T20:19:52Z")
Here goes… Guinastasia said… > [@](#): > > I like how so many strict constructionists ignore the 9th ammendment is it? That there are other rights and things that are not specifically listed, that we have a right to? The Constitution says in Amendment 9… > [@](#): > > The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. So what rights are being retained by the people? Free education? The word “free” itself is incompatible with a Capitalist free-market system. Nothing is free. Everything comes at a price. The market determines what makes it and what doesn’t. In our present society, education isn’t free anyway. You pay taxes to fund public schools. Is public schooling in and of itself bad? No. It’s a great idea, actually. However, the state should be forced to compete with the private sector on a level playing field. Right now, that’s impossible and continues to be impossible. The Congress refuses to allow it. Everyone who pays taxes pays for public education, whether or not you have a child in the system. If you refuse to send your child to school, you get punished for it. You cannot boycott the system here. And public schools are well known as being ripe social experimentation laboratories. Why won’t the Congress allow you to choose how to spend your money to educate your child? Because then they would be denied the control that they so need. I for one would not allow my child to set foot on public school grounds if I could afford not to. Why? They’re dangerous, unorganized, understaffed, and ineffective. There is no accountability system for public schools. And if you decide to transfer your child to another one, you have to pay tuition ON TOP of your already hefty taxes. So most kids end up staying at bad schools. However, in a competitive market, public schools would be forced to put out a good quality product (education in this case) or lose funds. That’s how it SHOULD work. My argument here, though, is that the FEDERAL government has no authority to run schools. Are there any federal universities? Not that I’m aware of (though I could be wrong, I admit). But there are plenty of state universities. Why not state schools? As it is, the federal government gives the states money to run the schools to a federal program. That’s wrong. I know I’m not the only one who keeps hearing cries for “more local control”. Why aren’t these schools controlled locally in the first place, as they should be? Now, as to private schools. It’s generally agreed that the quality of education is better, classes are smaller, and the facilities are great. But they do have money problems. My theory on that is it’s because not many people can afford to spend the money to send their kids to them. And private schools should be allowed to teach pretty much what they want. If the parents don’t like it, then they could send their kids to a different school. If three schools offer a big math, science and reading program, but school B only teaches Creationism while school A only teaches Evolution and school C teaches that both are theories that have some holes in them, I’d send my kid to school C. It’s the market that decides what survives and what doesn’t. At least that’s the way I think it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199/20 "2001-05-05T21:39:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > \*\* > Is public schooling in and of itself bad? No. It’s a great idea, actually… Everyone who pays taxes pays for public education, whether or not you have a child in the system. \*\* Public education benefits the PUBLIC at large, whether you have a child in the system or not. Society benefits, so society should pay for it, not just parents or guardians of students. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > **If you refuse to send your child to school, you get punished for it. You cannot boycott the system here.** You cannot escape the taxes, but you can put your child in public cshool or home-school if you don’t care for the public system. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > **And public schools are well known as being ripe social experimentation laboratories. Why won’t the Congress allow you to choose how to spend your money to educate your child?** Because Congress is concerned for the public good, not just the good of the child of one individual taxpayer. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > **I for one would not allow my child to set foot on public school grounds if I could afford not to. Why? They’re dangerous, unorganized, understaffed, and ineffective.** Generalization. There are some great public schools out there. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > **There is no accountability system for public schools.** Teacher accountability is a red herring most of the time. The biggest problem with poorly functioning scools is a lack of parent involvement in their child’s learning. Teachers cannot force parents to read to their kids like parents should, etc. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > \*\* And if you decide to transfer your child to another one, you have to pay tuition ON TOP of your already hefty taxes.\*\* Because you must still contribute to the public good even though your child is not in public school, the same way that I people should have to contibute to public highways even if they don’t have a car. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > **So most kids end up staying at bad schools. However, in a competitive market, public schools would be forced to put out a good quality product (education in this case) or lose funds. That’s how it SHOULD work.** I’m not touching the voucher issue. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > **My argument here, though, is that the FEDERAL government has no authority to run schools.** You have a valid contituional law argument here. Perhaps the feds are overstepping their bounds. If I am not mistaken, the feds get their power to aid state shcools via Article I, section 8, Commerce Clause powers to regulate commerce among the several states. Education affects commerce, so the feds can regulate education. The merits of a broad commerce clause interpretation are probably best left to a GD thread. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by darian00 > \*\*It’s the market that decides what survives and what doesn’t. At least that’s the way I think it should be. \*\* Libertarianism looks good on paper, but seems a bit cold and harsh. It denys human compassion. The market can’t do everything. Sometimes people need to do what’s “right” for others, even when there are no immediate financial gains to be made from doing it… but that’s just my humble opinion. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-it-with-republicans-and-school-lunches/64199.md?page=2)