# What the hell is so attractive about fascism? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701 "2024-07-03T23:56:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/101 "2024-07-11T12:15:45Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > This suggests there’s a lot of PR involved, and not inevitable social dynamics. Absolutely. The social dynamics can explain(\*) _who is vulnerable_ to the PR. But proper organized illiberal authoritarianism, never mind fascism, takes deliberate effort (as opposed to just feral populism where anyone promises anything and everyone flails out every which way and you get zero net motion). > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Posters to this thread point to the rural/urban divide. But British Fascism was an urban affair both with Oswald Mosely’s 1930s corner-boys and the fascistic 1980s football hooligans. And that bears remembering – that among the susceptible target populations is the _industrial working class_. It turns out that, I’m sure much to the chagrin of the old-school marxists and anarchists, when _that_ group gets ticked off at the elites and moneymen, they are just as if not **more** likely to follow the rightwing nationalist-populists (partly because _they_ don’t ask you to change your culture and accept it’s ok that your son can become your daughter and stop believing in Jesus) than go left. As mentioned before, > [@BobLibDem](#): > > They don’t like the fact that they’re working hard and not seeing as much fruit of their labors as they think they deserve …or that they’re out of work altogether, or relegated to work that does not make you a living. Now throw into that not just the rurals and the old-industrials, but also the suburban parents who are wooed with harkening to a time when The Streets Were Safe For The Children. Can’t forget that target sector. … (\* here we reiterate a favorite refrain of mine: explanation is not justification) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/102 "2024-07-11T17:27:02Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Absolutely. The social dynamics can explain(\*) _who is vulnerable_ to the PR. You make it sound like the populace are robots who think, say and do whatever the master programmers who can most successfully hack them command. If that is true then democracy was never anything more than an illusion, and the idea that the populace- yokels included- should be allowed agency is an absurdity. That’s exactly the sort of Wilsonian technocracy that the pro-Trump people are rebelling against. ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/103 "2024-07-11T17:56:45Z")
well, if crime–or their perception of it–becomes so bad that they don’t feel safe outside the house, or even inside, then I could see people giving up some freedoms in order to feel safe. and idea that if you’re innocent why object to monitoring? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/104 "2024-07-11T18:12:32Z")
_Explanation_ is _not_ determination, either. As **Slithy\_Tove** stated, it’s not “inevitable social dynamics”. Noting points of vulnerability is not the same as asserting that the vulnerable are doomed to fall for a skillful enough exploit. However since there are too many who just jump straight on to “oh they’re just ignorant bigots, f—- them!” it is worthwhile to explore where is it the propaganda is aimed, in order to contest it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/105 "2024-07-11T18:43:09Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > You make it sound like the populace are robots who think, say and do whatever the master programmers who can most successfully hack them command. Welcome to the entirety of human history. > [@Lumpy](#): > > If that is true then democracy was never anything more than an illusion, and the idea that the populace- yokels included- should be allowed agency is an absurdity. The Churchill-attributed aphorism about democracy applies here. > [@Lumpy](#): > > That’s exactly the sort of Wilsonian technocracy that the pro-Trump people are rebelling against. “Do Trump supporters understand the concept of rebelling against Wilsonian technocracy?” “In the red states from which his voters come, M’Lud, they speak of little else.” ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/106 "2024-07-11T22:50:39Z")
> [@fedman1](#): > > well, if crime–or their perception of it–becomes so bad that they don’t feel safe outside the house, or even inside, then I could see people giving up some freedoms in order to feel safe. and idea that if you’re innocent why object to monitoring? Except that the populist Right proposes an alternate strategy: allow people to own guns and use them in lawful self-defense. Which is why among the many planks of the Left’s platform that the populist Right objects to is the vendetta against firearms ownership. To be told that no, citizens shouldn’t own the means of self-defense, no one should ever be punished with death (certainly not for the crime of mere property appropriation), that the robberies, assaults, rapes and murders that criminals commit are doubtless distressing but ultimately should be addressed by social reform rather than mere barbaric violence- this strikes the populists as an example of creating a problem and then proposing half-baked solutions to it worthy of the savants of Swift’s Flying Island of Laputa: at best imbecility and at worst a sinister plot to destabilize and then seize control of society ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/107 "2024-07-11T23:02:37Z")
That’s a rather long-winded way of saying “The populist Right wants to be able to shoot anyone they want and get away with it”. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/108 "2024-07-11T23:04:08Z")
No it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2024, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/109 "2024-07-11T23:28:05Z")
The extrajudicial punishing with death of the crime of “mere property appropriation”, including robberies with no injury or threat of injury, is in no fucking way self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![LivingGhost371](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@LivingGhost371](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LivingGhost371)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/110 "2024-07-12T00:09:30Z")
Because no robbery has ever wound up with the victims dead as well as robbed. I guess if I’m being robbed I’m supposed to ask the robber if he intents to injure or kill me before defending myself. And trust a person that’s so evil that he’s robbing me in the first place. Because I’m sure a person that’s that nice of a person would never lie to me, no no no. I guess if there’s a home invader kicking down my door, I’m supposed to invite themt to sit down for coffee and question if they want to kill me or just take my TV before I go get the rifle in my closet. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/111 "2024-07-12T00:34:48Z")
Lynching is very very attractive for the same reason facism is. It’s a strong fantasy for people with urges for vengeance. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/112 "2024-07-12T03:11:05Z")
If you can’t see a distinction between lawful legitimate self-defense versus vigilantism and lynching, then you’ll never understand why the Democrats don’t get more support. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/113 "2024-07-12T09:25:33Z")
> [@LivingGhost371](#): > > Because no robbery has ever wound up with the victims dead as well as robbed. > > I guess if I’m being robbed I’m supposed to ask the robber if he intents to injure or kill me before defending myself. And trust a person that’s so evil that he’s robbing me in the first place. Because I’m sure a person that’s that nice of a person would never lie to me, no no no. > > I guess if there’s a home invader kicking down my door, I’m supposed to invite themt to sit down for coffee and question if they want to kill me or just take my TV before I go get the rifle in my closet. You use those strawmen for target shooting? You’ve moved the goalposts quite dramatically here from “theft” to “imminent threat”. Nobody is saying that you can’t defend yourself against someone actually threatening you. But that’s not “mere property appropriation”, is it? And why did you exclude the vast, vast middle between “killing someone who _might_ be a threat… or might not” and “offering them coffee”? Frankly I’m not sure you or **Lumpy** see the distinction between “lawful legitimate self-defense” and “vigilantism and lynching”. But that does bring us nicely back on topic - fear of the Other is indeed a strong component of fascism and is used to justify all sorts of violence. I mean, Jews were portrayed as an imminent – indeed, a full-on existential – threat to all good, decent, law-abiding Germans (Italians, etc). So what should they have done in the face of such an overwhelming threat? Ask them to sit down for coffee? Fascism makes you feel safe from the danger they’ve convinced you you face, whether it’s real and material or not. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/114 "2024-07-12T15:45:06Z")
_“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”_ –John Kenneth Galbraith Trump – like other RW demagogues – has tremendous appeal to the mouth-breathers, because he tells them that they shouldn’t have to care about less fortunate people, the planet, the environment, or minorities. He doesn’t ask them to be ‘better people’ in any way, shape or form, the way that most past Presidents have. He encourages them to be proud of their baser instincts and worst qualities. In short, he applauds them for their “religiosity” while simultaneously absolving them from any need to actually be decent human beings. Also, a worthwhile and quick read: > **[Fascism Anyone? | Free Inquiry](https://secularhumanism.org/2003/03/fascism-anyone/)** > > Free Inquiry readers may pause to read the “Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles” on the inside cover of the magazine. To a secular humanist, ... ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/115 "2024-07-12T16:37:18Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > They don’t see the tremendous change as society progressing. No, someone is cheating them; the system is rigged. Trump alone promises to restore things, to make things “great” again—or at least make those elites suffer. IMHO that’s the paradox of fascism. These people are being cheated, and the system is rigged. But they aren’t being cheated by an undocumented immigrant from Guatemala cleaning toilets for two dollars an hour. They aren’t being cheated by the typical transgender person\* just trying to live their lives and get by as well as they can. They aren’t being cheated by a Black person\* who through their own merits, after having external barriers to their progress removed, made it in to law school. Instead, they’re being cheated by people like Trump \*(and yes, a few people from historically oppressed communities like Caitlyn Jenner and Clarence Thomas). Why they can’t figure that out is the big mystery. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701/116 "2024-07-25T20:21:35Z")
Remember- no one wants Fascism. But they do like Right Wing Populism- and it is so easy to slide from RWP to out and out fascism. Hitler, Mussolini, Putin, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-is-so-attractive-about-fascism/1003701.md?page=5)