# what the hell (or heaven) is purgatory?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 11, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683 "2003-03-11T23:27:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@teemingONE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teemingONE)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/1 "2003-03-11T23:27:29Z")
My sunday school class only covered heaven and hell but not purgatory. What is purgatory, would a catholic believe in purgatory, where in the bible is purgatory mentioned, and am i spelling purgatory right?
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### Author:  [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/2 "2003-03-12T00:12:07Z")
My Catholic understanding is that purgatory is the place where people go if they die with unforgiven sins still weighing against them. In purgatory, you experience the horrors of hell for a certain period of time to expunge these sins from your soul. Once you’ve done your time, you can then be promoted to heaven.
It is also my understanding that purgatory as a concept ended after the famous Vatican II conference, where it was determined that neither purgatory nor limbo exist (but please correct me if I’m wrong on that one, all you religion experts). So, by my understanding, Catholics no longer accept purgatory as part of our universe. And, yes, you’re spelling it correctly.
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### Author:  [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/3 "2003-03-12T00:25:38Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Dread Pirate Jimbo \*
> \*\*It is also my understanding that purgatory as a concept ended after the famous Vatican II conference, where it was determined that neither purgatory nor limbo exist (but please correct me if I’m wrong on that one, all you religion experts). So, by my understanding, Catholics no longer accept purgatory as part of our universe. And, yes, you’re spelling it correctly. \*\*
I think that the concept of purgatory continues to exist, although limbo became a discouraged idea - that was where the Catholic Church taught that unbaptized babies went when they died.
Can’t produce a cite at the moment - I’m in class.
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### Author:  [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/4 "2003-03-12T00:35:59Z")
From the [_Catholic Encyclopedia_](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm):
> [@](#):
>
> Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
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### Author:  [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/5 "2003-03-12T00:50:07Z")
Purgatory gets no mention in the Bible. The closest thing you have to a Biblical justification for purgatory is one or two instances of people praying for the dead. (cf. 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, 2 Timothy 1:18) The reason this is a justification for purgatory is that if they’re in either heaven or hell, praying for them won’t help them. [[cite](http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Nov2000/Wiseman.asp)]
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### Author:  [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/6 "2003-03-12T00:55:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lsura \*
> \*\*I think that the concept of purgatory continues to exist, although limbo became a discouraged idea - that was where the Catholic Church taught that unbaptized babies went when they died.
>
> Can’t produce a cite at the moment - I’m in class.\*\*
**Lsura** is correct, according to the online essay [“Purgatory: An Essential Roman Catholic Doctrine”](http://www.reachingcatholics.org/purgatory.html) by James McCarthy, adapted from his book _The Gospel According to Rome_:
> [@](#):
>
> **Do Catholics Still Believe in Purgatory?**
>
> Many modern Catholics think of purgatory as a relic from the Dark Ages, which they would just as soon forget. Some Catholics even believe that purgatory is no longer a Roman Catholic doctrine.
>
> Despite popular opinion, however, purgatory is still an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church and an essential part of the Roman Catholic plan of salvation. The Church affirmed the existence of purgatory at each of the last three ecumenical councils: Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II. The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation “in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments.” According to Vatican II, “in purgatory the souls of those ‘who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions’ are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt.” The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes purgatory as place of “cleansing fire.”[1031]
>
> Belief in the existence of purgatory is also expressed at every Mass. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, prayers are offered for the dead. Usually the Mass itself is also offered for someone suffering in purgatory. The person’s name is announced or published in the Sunday bulletin. Each year, in fact, on the anniversary of the death of the last pope, the present pope offers Mass for the souls of his two predecessors who are, presumably, still suffering in purgatory.
>
> Adapted from _The Gospel According to Rome_ by James G. McCarthy, Harvest House Publishers, © 1995. This article is indexed to the numbered paragraphs of the _Catechism of the Catholic Church_. The paragraph numbers are in brackets.
The _Catechism_ on the [Vatican’s website](http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#III) contains these paragraphs on Purgatory:
> [@](#):
>
> **III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY**
>
> **1030** All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
>
> **1031** The Church gives the name _Purgatory_ to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605
>
> As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606
>
> **1032** This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
>
> Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609
>
> * * *
>
> 604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
> 605 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
> 606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
> 607 2 Macc 12:46.
> 608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
> 609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.
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### Author:  [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/7 "2003-03-12T01:57:41Z")
OK, so no more limbo (I do definitely recall that Vatican 2 promoted all virtuous non-Christians to Heaven), but we still have purgatory. So noted.
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### Author:  [@Dobso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dobso)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/8 "2003-03-12T02:39:27Z")
It’s where all purged documents and files go to.😃
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/9 "2003-03-12T06:10:59Z")
1 Corinthians 3 is also used as a justification for Purgatory:
> [@](#):
>
> For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/10 "2003-03-12T06:17:15Z")
1 Corinthians 3 is also used as a justification for Purgatory:
> [@](#):
>
> For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
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### Author:  [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/11 "2003-03-13T21:36:58Z")
Purgatory is a golf course in Noblesville, IN. This may be a link: [http://www.fredericktalbottinn.com/Golf.htm](http://www.fredericktalbottinn.com/Golf.htm) that contains its address.
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### Author:  [@Beruang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beruang)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/12 "2003-03-13T21:50:50Z")
\*\* slight hijack \*\*
My grandfather died when I was 7, and my Mother told me he went to Purgatory. No mention of cleansing fire; rather, it was described more like Heafven’s waiting room. (This was probably not due to some misunderstanding on the part of my Mother, who was pretty down with the dogma, but rather her not wanting to give her children nightmares.) I was advised to pray for Grampa and do good deeds in his honor, to help him get out of Purgatory and into Heaven.
Based on this, I conjured up an indelible image of Purgatory as an infinite checkerboard. All the dead souls occupied one square each. They all faced Heaven, which I imagined as the Sun. Every time you said a prayer, they would move up one square. While they waited, they sat in beach chairs, under umbrellas, sipping lemonade served by angels.
A much nicer, if somewhat boring, purification, I should think.
\*\* end hijack \*\*
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### Author:  [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/13 "2003-03-13T22:20:10Z")
Along those lines, I don’t know how common it is to think of purgatory as some sort of limbo, but I am reminded of an episode of _Family Guy_ that shows a shot from their vacation in purgatory. The family is floating in an infinite field of white. “It’s not bad. It’s not _good_, but it’s not _bad_.” “Yeah. It’s kinda… so-so.” 😃
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### Author:  [@Poto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poto)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/14 "2003-03-14T00:59:02Z")
I though THIS was purgatory…
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [March 14, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/15 "2003-03-14T01:12:37Z")
I always thought of Purgatory as like a car wash. Only they’d lay your soul out and sponge away your sins.
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### Author:  [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/16 "2003-03-16T01:30:18Z")
Pope John Paul II gave a series of homilies a few years ago on the afterlife: Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory.
One point he drove home was that these were more like _states of being_ than _places_.
If we remove the medieval materialism from the doctrine, then purgatory can make sense for the modern Catholic and Protestant.
Consider that no one’s perferct. We’ve all sinned. Do you think that we just translate into heaven exactly as we are with all that baggage? If purgatory is a state of being, then it is a transitionary stage going from this world, being perfected, and ending up in the heavenly state of being of pure contentment and unity with God.
For some with a lot of baggage, perhaps purgatory will be an unpleasant experience as one comes face to face with one’s unfiltered history of sin. The personal reaction of shame and guilt just might be punishment enough.
And since this all takes place outside of space and time, for us on earth, a deceased loved one’s purgatory is just a blink of an eye.
This means that all heaven-bound humans have gone through purgatory, even the most famous saints who we regard as being in heaven right now.
Yes, the medieval notions and ways of thinking still exist in the church. But this updated theology of purgatory is something the Pope has expounded on, and so is also a legitimately Catholic way of belief.
## Peace.
Catholic Theology 101 - Eschatology
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### Author:  [@BaldTaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaldTaco)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/17 "2003-03-16T02:58:30Z")
As far as I know, the concept of purgatory comes from the Divine Comedy, written by Dante Aligheiri in the 13/14th century.
The poem is composed of 3 parts, Inferno, [Purgatorio](http://www.bartleby.com/20/201.html), and Paradiso. The protagonist starts his journey by travelling down through the 9 circles of hell. At the top is Limbo, which is as high as you can get without being Catholic. This is where Dante placed anyone who wasn’t afforded the opportunity to be baptized. As he travels further down, he sees the Elysian Fields, the River Styx and the boatman Charon, and all sorts of other neat stuff. There’s a great deal of detail on what sort of torture the corrupt church and governmentt officials of the time are suffering.
At the bottom of hell, the protagonist finds Satan, and the 3 worst people Dante could think of. One of them is Brutus, but I can’t remember the other 2. Contrary to what you may think, the bottom level of hell is frozen. I was told that this represents a freezing of the will. Will is one of the central themes throughout the poem. Where you end up when you die is essentially based on how you exercised your willpower while alive.
After leaving the pits of hell, the protagonist goes to Purgatory. He starts on a beach, and then travels up a mountain. Purgatory is where the average Catholic would go. Anyone with sin goes to purgatory, so there are only a few exceptions. The whole concept here is atonement for one’s sins. There are 7 levels, one for each of the seven deadlies. Again, people from history are described as toiling at each level. As in hell, the punishments are appropriate to the sins committed while alive (Ironic Punishment Division :)). Prayer was said to speed along the climb, and later the church corrupted this concept by selling indulgences to people, which were basically just pieces of paper saying that there was a monk somehwere praying for your dead mom’s soul. Regardless, progress up this mountain was exceptionally slow, taking thousands of years.
At the top of the mountain is Paradise. I’m not really going to say anything about Paradiso, because it was pretty boring and I didn’t really read much of it. The handful of people up there are all free of sin, there’s lots of hanging gardens and radiant golden light, pretty much what you’d expect in heaven.
Anyway, Dante meant all this to be an allegory, but as usual, the Church took it literally. Many of his ideas were later incorporated into official doctrine. The Divine Comedy also had a great influence on people when it was written – you can see this reflected in a lot of Renaissance art.
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### Author:  [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/18 "2003-03-16T03:25:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by BaldTaco \*
> \*\*As far as I know, the concept of purgatory comes from the Divine Comedy, written by Dante Aligheiri in the 13/14th century.
>
> . . . .
>
> Anyway, Dante meant all this to be an allegory, but as usual, the Church took it literally. Many of his ideas were later incorporated into official doctrine. The Divine Comedy also had a great influence on people when it was written – you can see this reflected in a lot of Renaissance art. \*\*
Dante may have popularized Purgatory, but he hardly invented it. The Catholic tradition of praying for the dead is as old as the Church, and appears in writings as early as the late 2nd and early 3rd centuries, particularly [Clement of Alexandria](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04045a.htm) (fl. 190-215), [Tertullian](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14520c.htm) (b. ca. 160), and [Cyprian](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04583b.htm) (fl. 218-54):
> [@](#):
>
> This doctrine that many who have died are still in a place of purification and that prayers avail to help the dead is part of the very earliest Christian tradition. Tertullian “De corona militis” mentions prayers for the dead as an Apostolic ordinance, and in “De Monogamia” (cap. x, P. L., II, col. 912) he advises a widow “to pray for the soul of her husband, begging repose for him and participation in the first resurrection”; he commands her also “to make oblations for him on the anniversary of his demise,” and charges her with infidelity if she neglect to succour his soul. This settled custom of the Church is clear from St. Cyprian, who (P. L. IV, col. 399) forbade the customary prayers for one who had violated the ecclesiastical law. “Our predecessors prudently advised that no brother, departing this life, should nominate any churchman as his executor; and should he do it, that no oblation should be made for him, nor sacrifice offered for his repose.” Long before Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria had puzzled over the question of the state or condition of the man who, reconciled to God on his death-bed, had no time for the fulfilment of penance due his transgression. His answer is: "the believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc. (P. G. IX, col. 332).
From [The Catholic Encyclopedia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm).
The Second Council of Lyons (1274) recognized that “from the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.” [Cathechism of the Catholic Church ¶ 1032.](http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#III)
Dante wrote the Divine Comedy between [1308 and 1321](http://www.watershedonline.ca/literature/Dante/danteessays.html).
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/19 "2003-03-16T03:33:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> As far as I know, the concept of purgatory comes from the Divine Comedy, written by Dante Aligheiri in the 13/14th century.
> . . .
> Anyway, Dante meant all this to be an allegory, but as usual, the Church took it literally.
You have that reversed. Dante’s portrayal of hell, purgatory, and heaven was an attempt to translate the philosophical ponderings of Thomas Aquinas into poetry. The concept was there, then Dante elaborated upon it.
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### Author:  [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-hell-or-heaven-is-purgatory/160683/20 "2003-03-16T07:02:24Z")
Teeming asks:
* * *
what the hell (or heaven) is purgatory?
My sunday school class only covered heaven and hell but not purgatory. What is purgatory, would a catholic believe in purgatory, where in the bible is purgatory mentioned, and am i spelling purgatory right?
```
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```
Would you like to ask also, teeming, what are the advantages in everyday life to Catholics in their belief in the existence of purgatory whether as a state of existence or a place?
And also the advantages to the temporalities of the Catholic Church from the dogma of purgatory.
O.K., I take that last one back; it’s already an old old controversy.
Susma Rio Sep
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