Susma, this is the General Questions Forum. If you’re looking for a debate on an issue, you can open a new thread in the Great Debates Forum.
In a word…“halftime”.
I’ll be the first to admit that my knowledge of this subject is spotty at best, but I was under the impression that Dante was thought to be a major source for the formalization of specific doctrine regarding the afterlife.
As you guys noted, earlier thinkers had certainly mused on the nature of life after death, but I don’t think anyone described it as vividly or as specifically as Dante. Aquinas approached the subject as a philosopher, Dante as a poet. As a result, the visual imagery in the Divine Comedy is unforgettable.
Of course, in it’s strict literal-mindedness, the Church transformed a lot of what Dante wrote into official doctrine, ie. that Limbo, Hell, and Purgatory are real places that you could actually visit when you die. If you ask a Catholic who grew up before Vatican II, many will tell you that they were taught the gory detais of where in hell/purgatory they’d end up for being bad girls and boys, and those details can be traced straight back the Divine Comedy.
I’m not saying that Dante invented the concept of purgation, but I think he can be credited with clearly defining the Christian concept of Purgatory.
The Baltimore Catechism on purgatory:
Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?
A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
Q. 1382. Why is this state called Purgatory?
A. This state is called Purgatory because in it the souls are purged or purified from all their stains; and it is not, therefore, a permanent or lasting state for the soul.
Q. 1383. Are the souls in Purgatory sure of their salvation?
A. The souls in Purgatory are sure of their salvation, and they will enter heaven as soon as they are completely purified and made worthy to enjoy that presence of God which is called the Beatific Vision.
Q. 1384. Do we know what souls are in Purgatory, and how long they have to remain there?
A. We do not know what souls are in Purgatory nor how long they have to remain there; hence we continue to pray for all persons who have died apparently in the true faith and free from mortal sin. They are called the faithful departed.
Q. 1385. Can the faithful on earth help the souls in Purgatory?
A. The faithful on earth can help the souls in Purgatory by their prayers, fasts, alms, deeds; by indulgences, and by having Masses said for them.
Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?
A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.
The Catholic Church couldn’t come up with a definitive answer for what happened to people who died before birth or otherwise appeared to have no basis on which they could be judged. They were said to be in “a state of Limbo”; that is, nobody could account for them. A good many people–including a million nuns who made a career of cracking grade school kids knuckles with rulers–took this “state” to be a literal place, the same as Connecticut or Rhode Island.
As for Purgatory, a fair number of people who aren’t Catholic believe in it or something like it. Aldous Huxley, IIRC, argued for its existence in a short book called Heaven and Hell. His argument (and that of a fair number of Catholics) goes like this:
After this life a person goes into a stte of union with an all-good, all-loving God. This bliss is what we call “heaven”.
Some people are denied God’s love. The state of wretchedness and shame they feel as they exist in a state where they see things truly, and apprecite ultimate truths about who and what they are, is Hell.
Most of the people who exist in communion with God and
His perfect love are just…people. That is, they failed God at various times in their lives. The shame and regret they feel is gradually overcome by the experience of God’s all-encompassing love. This process of healing, or coming clean is Purgatory, as they are “purged” of their sins.
In the view of some people–Catholics for instance–you have to have been pretty rancid to actually be denied God’s love and forgiveness for eternity.
Only twice has The Catholic Church in its whole history officially expressed the opinion that somebody probably went to hell. One of the people who earned this distinction was an Italian nobleman in the Rennaissance (his name escapes me) who committed all sorts of Charles Manson-like excesses. Among other things, he is said to have sodomized a bishop while his assembled troops watched.
The other was Judas Iscariot. An indication of just how difficult it is to make determinations of this sort can be gotten by considering that some Orthodox churches regard Judas as a saint who, in committing suicide, made atonement in the only way he could.
Some people of other theological stripes have far less trouble in making up their minds about who has gone (or is going to go) to hell. In the South Park movie Hitler was shown flying about a firey desolate wasteland along with George Burns. This was not an expression of some particular hostility towards the late comedian, but only a reflection of what millions of Evangelical Christians believe; all modern day Jews go to Hell. Similarly, there were signs shown at the gates to Heaven and Hell, showing how many people had been admitted, much like the signs at McDonald’s showing how many burgers have been served. The sign for heaven listed a few thousand. The number
on the sign for Hell was truly astronomical.
A few years back there was the leak of a census the Southern Baptist Convention had commissioned to determine how many Americans were going to rot in Hell for eternity. They had confidently concluded that there were millions upon millions, having started by counting all of the people who didn’t belong to the right sort of denomination.
Similarly, years ago I worked as a volunteer at a homeless shelter which was run by Evangelical Christians. When actor Henry Fonda died, one of the full-time staff observed that it was sad that he had gone to Hell despite all of his talent. When I asked her how she knew that he had been damned for eternity, she said “he must have been, or his daughter couldn’t have those opinions she does”.
Sending people to Hell, is, in fact, a precious source of comfort for a great many people. Much of the appeal of beliefs that the world is soon coming to an end in accordance with Biblical prophecy derives from the empowerment it gives some people to think that they are going to be scooped up bodily to Heaven while the girls who laughed at them when they asked them to the Prom, the mean p.e. coaches who made them run extra laps, and the show-offs who graduated college are going to burn forever.
I’m sorry if I offend anyone, but I have to ask, why does anyone believe any of this (just purgatory, not on the issue of a God) if the “official” rules of it change from century to century and also that it is not mentioned in the bible?
If “the rules” change from century to century only because of how people feel at the time and not on any divine intervention why should I believe in any part of it besides the core “There is a God” belief?
That pretty much goes for anything that has changed in the church since the firsthand witnesses to everything died about nineteen-hundred years ago.
What makes you think that the rules have changed? Beginning with the acceptance by the early church of the passage in II Macabbees that it is worthwhile to pray for the dead, then extending through the church fathers (Cyprian, Tertullian, and Clement of Alexandria are mentioned, above), and continuing through the present day, the church has rather consistently held that a person who died who had not been purified of their sinfulness (separate from being forgiven or saved, which only Jesus can do), will undergo purification before being admitted to the presence of God. There have been changes in imagery, moving from a depiction of physical torments toward a concept of spiritual cleansing, but the basic concept has remained constant throughout the last couple of thousand years.
And, of course, the Catholics and Orthodox consider II Macabbees scripture, so while the description is not found in scripture, the basic idea of the efficacy of praying for the dead (and why) is scriptural for several Christian groups.
teemingOne asks:
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what the hell (or heaven) is purgatory?
My sunday school class only covered heaven and hell but not purgatory. What is purgatory, would a catholic believe in purgatory, where in the bible is purgatory mentioned, and am i spelling purgatory right?
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Please bear with me, teeming.
I am a guy who wants to go into the psychology, the mind and heart of the inquirer.
If your curiosity about purgatory is similar to your curiosity about what is at the center of earth.
It should not be the same.
You see, for curiosity about the center of the earth one goes to writers of science.
For curiosity about purgatory, one goes to the authoritative spokesmen of the religion with that article of belief.
Now, how do the authoritative spokesmen of the religion come to the knowledge of purgatory?
From the history of religious doctrines in the Catholic Church and also in the Protestant churches, they put it to a vote.
In the past they also fought wars over it: military victory in those times was decisive for people under the victors.
Until then they could discuss and speculate forever.
Now, if you stand to obtain some re-assurance from the existence of a purgatory; for it is not easy and simple to get to heaven, yet getting to hell is also not so acceptable from the standpoint of fairness; then purgatory is the best compromise.
However, if you stay around much much longer, one day purgatory in the Catholic Church will go into desuetude.
Like the Second Coming, which is only of pre-occupation among fundamentalist Christians nowadays.
Susma Rio Sep
BaldTaco:
Give it up. Dante in no way added to the theological development of purgatory. His “circles of hell” is the only idea that gathered pop cultural currency (but even then, most people couldn’t even list or describe the circles). By his time, it was already ingrained in the popular mindset that heaven, hell, and purgatory were places where one spent time. His Purgatorio is regarded as the least interesting or influential of the trilogy. If you can find just one pop reference to a circle of purgatory and what their (temporary) punishment is, I’ll give you a snipe rifle.
Actually, heaven and hell are pretty core to Christian belief, being mentioned quite often by the originator of Christianity. The explanation and expounding of these states of being of the afterlife do change with the changes in philosophical stances and scientific knowledge over time, but not because of “how people feel at the time.”
Purgatory is intimately connected with the core concept of heaven and ‘eternal reward.’ It is the answer to the question of “What happens to forgiven and redeemed people who still have minor sins and still haven’t ‘made up for’ their past sins?”
Those who emphasize the divine justice of God will side on the need for punishment to make up for sins. Those who emphasize the divine mercy of God will side on the wiping out of debt and immediate redemption. Those who take a middle stance are yelled at by both sides, and thus, are probably right.
On Limbo:
A medieval concept. Never official Church teaching. Not mentioned once in the documents of Vatican Council II. As a concept, it’s dead.
Peace.
Pie Jesu, domini, dona eis requiem.
To follow up on Achernar’s contribution, another metaphorical representation of Purgatory is found in an especially imaginative episode of the series St. Elsewhere.
Shot in a Catholic hospital, Howie Mandel’s character Dr. Fikus (sp?) finds himself given a tour in the Catholic afterlife. He finds that Heaven is like a mansion surrounded by a park full of playing children, where he meets Marian Mercer, one of the nicest patients he ever encountered. God looks exactly like him (well, he was created in His image). In Hell he is afloat in a rowboat on a vast still sea with a doctor who was a rapist. Purgatory, imaginatively, is a huge desert where a couple of fat, indolent slobs he knew are sitting in lawn chairs, bored out of their minds.
The other two were Judas and Cassius. There were others there, too, though. The ninth circle was the level for traitors. The three were the only ones who were being continually chewed upon by Satan.