Maybe people here aren’t seeing it because it isn’t there. Much of the ire focused on us by Islamic fundamentalists is because of our aid to Israel. Those guys may be crazy, but they ain’t stooopid.
And you’re right, spoke-, this isn’t a Republican thing. If anything, I think the Dems (as a whole) may be more in bed with Israel. The Pat Buchanan wing of the Republican party is not too thrilled with our relationship.
You really threw a monkey wrench into the works there. I didn’t expect that answer at all. I’ll just slowly back away, mumbling something about military occupation and popular grass root insurgencies.
One question it apparently did not raise is “What will be the value of military aid to Egypt and Saudi Arabia over the next ten years?”
If history is any guide, it’ll far exceed the aid to Israel. And that’s for just two Arab nations receiving U.S. military aid. In one recent period, Israel got less than 1/4th the U.S. military aid going to the Mideast. Cite.
What are we getting from the other two countries you mentioned? The Saudis aren’t going to sell us oil if we don’t make sure they get the latest U.S. weaponry? What exactly are we getting from Egypt, aside from their not raising hell in the Mideast?
Your OP would be more consistent if it advocating withdrawing military aid to all parties in the region (although you’d have to fill in a few blanks regarding strategic aims).
Ah, the return of the Evul Israel Lobby.
Maybe we’ll get to hear some fascinating new conspiracy theories.
I think your cite is for military sales, not aid.
Ah, the return of the poisoning-the-well fallacy.
Given their history, not raising hell is a pretty good buy.
The OP did question the aid given to Egypt and the Saudis.
Garbage. We aren’t “fighting them over there”. We’re fighting the Iraqis. And everything we’ve been doing has increased their numbers and strength.
Killing Saddam. Destroying Iraqi secularism. Increasing hatred for America. Crippling ourselves militarily. And so on.
Jackmannii, I may have missed it in your post amid the misdirections there.
Why is it we should give Israel $30 billion?
And what do we get in return?
You seem to keep missing the obvious - most of the money isn’t going to Israel (or Saudi Arabia or Egypt), in any meaningful sense. Most will end up in the hands of American arms manufacturers. It’s corporate welfare, using Israel (or Saudi Arabia or Egypt) as a convenient excuse.
Of course, as a stable democracy in a troubled region, I personally think Israel deserves lots of support. I’d be happy to see them start empire-building and seize control of all the surrounding governments, promoting industry, education and women’s emancipation.
I’m not missing anything. Israel gets $30 billion worth of military hardware, paid for by US taxpayers, saving Israeli taxpayers the expense.
Yeah, it’s corporate welfare. It’s also a subsidy to Israel, effectively underwriting a big chunk of their defense budget.
As a bonus, guess who gets blamed when those free made-in-America bombs get dropped on Arabs or Iranians? (Hint: Not just Israel.)
If by “support” you mean $100 taken out of my pocket and put into Israel’s, I’d like to first see a little evidence that they need the support. Israel is not a poor country.
If by “support” you mean taking $30 billion that could have been spent on badly-needed infrastructure improvements in the US, then the evidence is going to have to be pretty compelling.
I agree, but support in the sense of diplomatic, economic and military co-operation, not giving them money for a bunch of weapons when they’ve shown that they’re quite capable of paying for and providing their own defense during periods when their neighbors were much more hostile towards them then they are now.
If the last few years have taught us anything, its that having a stable, liberal democracy conquer a more repressive arab country is not a very good way to promote any of the things you mentioned.
I don’t see how this would be any different without the thirty-extra-large.
Well, to solve this conundrum, you’d have to hop in the time machine and journey back to January 17, 1961 when Dwight Eisenhower warned the U.S. about the military-industrial complex and make people pay attention.
Well, I play a lot of Civilization and Conflict and conquest usually wins.
Aw, hell, we’d’ve just blown it, anyway.
Dude, that’s going to buy you like, four aircraft and a year’s supply of working spares. And if you could get administrative overhead for any military program below 25% I think you’d be breaking one of the seven seals.
I don’t think we can blame any intelligence instrument for the political decision to ignore information that didn’t fit with the preconceived agenda for “regime change” in Iraq.
As for the linked article, the outrage is somewhat late to the party; we’ve been giving major foreign aid to Israel since the Johnson Administration. This is less about giving money to Israel than funnelling it back to American defense contractors in barely disguised corporate welfare. As already noted, Israel has a vibrant economy which could readily afford increased defense spending; they also have a strong domestic arms production and development economy and they’d just as spend their own money on their own production rather than ours. One additional consideration may be that by providing money with said strings attached, they’ll be less prone to coopererative development ventures with the Communist China or India. Israel is a fairweather friend at best (and the same could be said about the United States by any number of regimes we now regard as unfriendly) and can, have, and will share with other nations when it suits their immediate interests in definance of long-term goals of the United States.
That’s what I tell myself every time I see a subcontractor clearly wasting money on a program that is clearly a dead-end development. It’s not like it’s real money, anyway.
Stranger
If you want to think of it as the US government subsidizing American weapons developers, it might rest easier on your soul. Seriously, what’s the problem here? We’re giving 30 billion to Isreal, 24 billion of which ends up right back in America.
Personally, I think Isreal is an ally worth keeping, even if it means spending 30 million a year arming them. Seriously, folks, they’re a stable government in the Middle East that actually likes us. Why in the world wouldn’t we go to extreme lengths to help them? And can you really claim that offering what amounts to a discount on our military tech is even that big a deal for such an important ally?
By similar logic, providing enough assistance to place Israel in a secure military position arguably deters hell that otherwise would be aimed at it from other quarters.
But then claimed a “clearer” justification for it.
I can see questioning the level of foreign aid given to various parties in the Mideast, especially given the quarrelsome, autocratic and/or unstable nature of many of them (as far as weapons falling into the wrong hands, I’d worry more about what the Egyptians or Saudis are getting than what Israel is acquiring).
Honing in heavily on Israel’s aid makes little objective sense, given that overall assistance to that country has been declining (from about 3.7 to 2.5 billion dollars a year over the fiscal year 2003-06 span) and economic aid to Israel is ending. While not tying some strings to future military aid based on movement towards peace is a likely mistake, it also would seem foolish to cut overall aid to Israel at a time when we’re contemplating bailing out of Iraq. Emboldening Israel’s enemies is not a good way to promote peace in the region.
That fallacy re-appeared when you decided to throw Evul AIPAC into the midst of your “argument”.
Nah, it’s only a mutually-agreed-upon fantasy. The government pretends its real and we pretend it has value.
Yeah, and the real estate market is just going to go nowhere but up…
Stranger
But Israels proven itself quite capable of providing its own deterrent. I think that’s what the OP’s point is, not why are we supporting Israel in a general sense, but why do they specifically need our 20 billion for defense when in the past they managed to provide their own defense back when their enemies were much more numerous and their own country far less prosperous (and had no nukes).
Well, he said it was a little clearer, but he still asked the question. And it is a little clearer, I think most people see aid to Egypt/SA as having a clear quid pro quo aspect to it, while its unclear that Israel gives the US anything in return for our aid.
(shrug) And the value of real estate is only what we place on it. This is new? A 40’ lot in Detroit is only worth $500, why? Because that’s all people are willing to pay for it. This is the most basic of Big-E Economics.