To continue the discussion of particle physics and its impact on postmodern (literary, at least) studies and ideas, there are several books that take chaos theory and apply them to literature in some way. Tom Rice, from the U. of South Carolina makes some interesting arguments re: Joyce in this book http://www.press.uillinois.edu/s97/rice.html. A google on chaos theory literature postmodernism brings up several hits.
Correct me if I am wrong, but (to me) it sounds like post modernism is just relitivism with a new name.
What I mean is that there are no absolutes. There is no right and there is no wrong.
Did I just grossly oversimplify the concept, or did I miss the train altogether?
Correct me if I am wrong, but (to me) it sounds like post modernism is just relitivism with a new name.
What I mean is that there are no absolutes. There is no right and there is no wrong.
Did I just grossly oversimplify the concept, or did I miss the train altogether?
I think this part of the OP has been neglected; sorry to abandon the thread for awhile there, erislover.
I can only speak for literature (I assume that’s what you were after, judging from your examples), but postmodernism claims a rotating troupe of writers, depending on who you talk to. Among the most frequently cited are: Donald Barthelme; Thomas Pynchon; John Barth; William Gaddis; William Gass; and Robert Coover.
If you would like a palatable introduction to postmodern fiction, I recommend you pick up some Donald Barthelme. His short stories are still in print and are almost always at your local B&N. Start off with Forty Stories or Sixty Stories; then if you want a seasoned reflection on postmodernism, pick up Not Knowing.
Everyone, feel free to add to my list.
erl: I know that article had serious problems. I remembered reading it when it ran, and linked to it because it did illustrate some kind of connection between quantum physics and postmodernism, whatever else it did. chriszarate’s comments instantly reminded me of it.
The SDMB has really spoiled me for reading most opinion articles. I try to imagine articles I read as Great Debates OPs, and I’m painfully aware that what passes for journalism in the real world often does not meet the most basic standards here. Such an article as the one I linked to, if presented as an OP here, would be rightly ripped to shreds.
Anyway - I have nothing further to say on the topic so I’s bowing out. Sorry for the disturbance!
Aaaah! My comments reminded you of that? I have to go wash my fingers.
Just your implied connection between quantum physics and postmodernism. I think that is sound. Maybe somebody can find better support for it than I did!
masonite, no disturbance here. 
Apache: good call, I was sort ofthinking the same thing. Maybe extreme relativism with a foundational twist? Of course, relativism in its moral form basically finishes where it starts: this culture says this is right and this is wrong, and no mor can be said. Well, some people have taken this and ran with it in several different directions, but it is at least the jumping-off point.
But from what has been mentioned here it seems that PM also has its own things to say about foundations in general, and that they are crap (well, ok, maybe not crap ;)). Reminds me of the Principia Discordia. But if PM got running in the 70’s then either Malaclypse the Younger (and Eris, glory be!) was ahead of his time, or it only really took form and became noticible in these later years… which, I suppose, sounds more plausible than anything else.
Given AHunter’s exposition on it all, in fact, the whole “growing to a head” seems totally appropriate as I can see the work of several philosophers in the notions driving it, all with an empirical bent, culminating with Popper in some ways that seem interesting but are probably tangential. (Note: this isn’t GD, shut up; gotcha ya)
chriszarate, thanks for the lit refs. Worth investigating, I think.
stofsky: I think this is one allusion to Joyce too much; I now feel absolutely compelled to read him, whereas previously it was only a passing interest that I some day might. Thanks for the link.
Camille Paglia:
“French post-structuralism, among its many stupidities, denies that a coherent self exists. Academic nebbishes love this notion. Anyone interested in the performing arts knows that personality is a vitalistic, uncontrollable phenomenon.”
“Lacan, Derrida, and Foucault are the perfect prophets for the weak, anxious academic personality, trapped in verbal formulas and perennially defeated by circumstance. They offer a self-exculpating cosmic explanation for the normal professorial state of resentment, alienation, dithery passivity, and inaction.”
Yeesh. Camille is such a woon.
POSTMODERN WARNING!!! It is important for presbyopics to note that, while pomo and porno may look similar in print, they are usually disparate entities. It is worth the trouble to squint and look closely at your monitor, lest you find yourself looking at images of horses and humans, all naked.
What is a “woon”?
Those who know about quantum physics, such as Victor J. Stenger, Proffessor of Physics at the University of Hawaii, scoff at the postmodernists claim that quantum mechanics validates their ideas. Search Victor Stenger on Yahoo! or other search engine for further info.
It also reminds me a bit of Dada, albeit a dried-out, emasculated, academic version of Dada stripped of its obscene screaming and all the other fun parts. There is the same basic emphasis on the pointlessness of every search for meaning.
This, in turn reminds me of a quote from Salvador Dali, in which he commented on the fact that Dada had become so widepread in the art world that it had lost its original vitality, for the simple reason that newer artists were convinced that their readymades were “subtler than the art of Praxiteles.” Dali then pointed out that Tristan Tzara had once said, “Dada is this. Dada is that. Either way, it’s crap,” and that that was the entire point of the movement – that it was supposed to be crap. Its dilution to the point of ubiquity, Dali thought, was what compelled Marcel Duchamp to quit art to play chess full time.
So basically, the story of art (and at the same time, criticism) in the past century or so is that it evolved from initial “meaningless” challenges to outmoded ways of thinking to a sort of apotheosis of meaninglessness to the point where it has become a tradition. Duchamp’s “Fountain” (the urinal), for example, is no longer a bitter and cynical challenge to the art world, but a masterpiece, and is displayed as such. Thus, true Dadaist “guerrilla art” now consists of two artists pissing on Duchamp’s urinal. The real question is, where do we go from here?
No, pomo as I understand it is quite different from Dada. Again, I can only comment on it as it pertains to music since this is my area of expertise (I could be entirely mistaken in the larger philosophical/politcal spheres).
Dada, as I understand it (I actually know little about it), was a movement which reacted to the extreme complexities and high level of intellectualism that had emerged in the art world. It was basically saying, “Screw the intellectuals, the snobs, the elitist ‘high’ art”.
In this sense Dada seems to me to be more associated with modernism in its desire to completely break with the past.
Modernist music gave birth to extremely new and experimental music-making practices. Whereas 19th century music was about initially perfecting a system based on scales, chords, and the hierachial relationship between the notes within them (known as the “tonal” system), and eventually twisting and turning that system in more expressive ways, 20th century modernist music was about completely rejecting that tonal system.
Indeed, the first significant sub-movement was “atonality” which was later devised into a very strict system by Arnold Schoenberg known as the “12 tone” system, and this become the dominant practice in art music for a while.
Many other much more radical practices also emerged: Italian futurists (machine noises), musique concrete (manipulating taped sounds from nature and the everyday world by splicing sections together, playing tape backwards, changing the speed, etc.), Indeterminacy (music made by factors left up to chance, most notably that of John Cage), electronic music, minimalism, etc.
The basic idea was to do something that hadn’t been done before.
Pomo music doesn’t feel this desire. Anything that has been done before anywhere is fair game as an element, or many elements, of a work of art. One of the most quintessential pieces of pomo is Berio’s Simfonia which takes a movement from a Mahler symphony verbatim and creates a thick, rich collage by layering on top of it many (perhaps 100’s) of snippets and references to music from all different time periods by many different composers.
In contrast with Dada, there is nothing inherently anti-intellectual or anti-formal education about pomo. Pomo simply says that nothing is sacred; there is no such thing as authenticity, or the idea that a work of art carries with it a kind of “aura”.
The use of sampling in hip-hop can be seen as pomo.
The way Dave Letterman can give you an ironic glance after telling a joke that didn’t quite work - as if to let you know that part of the joke of it all is the talk show formula itself - is an example of post modernism, while Leno seems to really believe in what he’s doing.
The retro sitcoms “That 70’s Show” and “That 80’s Show” are pomo. Retro itself is a pomo concept.
“Futurama” is pomo.