# What the world really needs now is "fire & fury" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136 "2017-08-08T22:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/181 "2017-08-10T15:32:37Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Put that shit on TV. I don’t care if it’s pay-per-view, I’ll pay good money to watch. Hell, I’ll even put out a party plate ,beer, funny hats, little banners, and **vuvuzelas for everyone**. My God, man! Have you no decency? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/182 "2017-08-10T15:34:48Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Yep, this is the real danger that we’re in now. John Bolton gradually had his profile lowered as George W Bush, the individual, realized how badly he had been misled by the likes of Cheney, but Bolton has a lot of fanboys on the right for his chest beating and tough talk (and the fact that he looks like a walrus). Trump doesn’t listen to advice but watches a lot of Fox News and that’s a terrible combination. This is not the time to go with his gut, especially when he has no idea what he’s wading into. There are scant military and diplomatic communication channels between the US and North Korea, if they exist at all. If North Korea or the United States misinterprets the actions of the other, we’re going to end up having a disaster with consequences that will last decades. > > In one sense, Trump’s bluster and the immediate political reaction at home may already have potentially permanent consequences that nobody has really discussed, and that has to do with the strategic alliance in Asia. In fact Sen. Lindsay Graham made a very revealing comment that might have ripple effects: > > And this is what both the political right and left wings in Japan have been saying for a long time, which is that the United States military alliance serves the American interest, not their own. This has probably been one of the goals of the Kim regime (and one reason why China has been willing to tolerate their behavior): to weaken and break the alliance so that they can deal with countries like Japan and South Korea one on one, rather than as part of a global alliance manipulated by an external superpower. Cheney was a real piece of work. At first he hated W because he saw him as a stupid weakling he could push around. But when W saw how twisted he was and pushed back, Cheney hated him for THAT. Cheney was a fucking psychopath. So is Bolton. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/183 "2017-08-10T15:36:48Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > My God, man! Have you no decency? I thought you knew! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/184 "2017-08-10T15:38:59Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I thought you knew! 😃 I never imagined you could sink to such depths of depravity. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/185 "2017-08-10T15:41:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. But we should make crystal clear that we don’t offer armed response to words. > > Trump’s narcissistic need to come out on top of any exchange is ill-suited to deal with Kim Jong-Un’s narcissistic need to come out on top of any exchange. > > We should be proud: until January 20th of this year, North Korea led the world in terms leaders with narcissistic needs to come out on top of any exchange and access to nuclear weaponry. Now we’re giving them a run for first place. Truly, we are great again. We’re number one! We’re number one! We’re number one! Oh wait… ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/186 "2017-08-10T15:42:01Z")
So, I heard James “Spider” Marks on CNN say we’d shoot down any ICBM. I’m skeptical about our ability to do so, at least on any reliable basis. But hell, defense tech is pretty advanced. Anyone have any idea on our capabilities here? ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/187 "2017-08-10T15:54:45Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The threat to Guam came after Trump’s “fire and fury” remark. He told them to stop making threats and they issued a threat. Trump’s a cuck. Not according to this guy in Great Debates - [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20401804&postcount=6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20401804&postcount=6) > [@Bricker](#): > > No. But we should make crystal clear that we don’t offer armed response to words. Meh. He told them in no uncertain terms what would happen to them if they struck first. No mention of us striking first, just a reiteration of our long standing policy towards a nuclear attack on us. Rolling eyes might have been a better response to their threat but I’m hard pressed to condemn and panic over what Trump said. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/188 "2017-08-10T15:56:42Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Not according to this guy in Great Debates - > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20401804&postcount=6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20401804&postcount=6) > > Meh. He told them in no uncertain terms what would happen to them if they struck first. No mention of us striking first, just a reiteration of our long standing policy towards a nuclear attack on us. > > Rolling eyes might have been a better response to their threat but I’m hard pressed to condemn and panic over what Trump said. You’d be hard pressed to condemn and panic if Trump started throwing nukes around at random. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/189 "2017-08-10T16:10:24Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > just a reiteration of our long standing policy towards a nuclear attack on us. Bit more than that, actually. Know what Kennedy said after Khrushchev parked those missiles on Cuba? “It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union.” No fire, no fury, simply “a full retaliatory response”. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/190 "2017-08-10T16:18:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I agree that I’d rather have George W. Bush deal with this and I hated W. > > As for what I’d do, I would admit what is obviously true: North Korea has won, they have got what they wanted and I would let them have it. North Korea wants to be treated like a normal state. They want to be at the table in international affairs, they want legitimacy for their rule. The fact that they have nuclear missiles capable of hitting us, makes that true. Nukes are like tortoise shell glasses, they confer a certain respectability and status. I missed this earlier. Thanks for taking and answering the question seriously. In some ways I don’t disagree with you. If all they seek is to sit at the big table, who cares. The world knows what they are and letting them live and do as they please (within the bounds of every other nation out there) isn’t anything I would be against, personally. The regime wants to slaughter and subjugate their people, again, who cares (it’s the Libertarian streak in me that doesn’t have issues with it). The problem is that every US president both Republican and Democrat, hawk and dove alike, have taken the stance that NK should be alienated from the rest of the world for acts against its people and its neighbors. For all of them to come to that same conclusion (personally) gives me pause. I can’t believe their reasons are anything less then educated and based on ideas plenty of people think are sound. On the other hand, it resembles Cuba in that lifting sanctions and dismissing the hate of the past is doubtful to come to the threats we had from them before, if that makes any sense. That is, as much as we disagree with them letting them do as they please so long as it doesn’t effect, us fine. They come after us we turn them into glass. On a moral level I’m looser than most regarding crazy dictators, including every president so far. I can only think it’s because I don’t know enough about the risks and ultimately take their word as being right. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/191 "2017-08-10T16:20:44Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Bit more than that, actually. Know what Kennedy said after Khrushchev parked those missiles on Cuba? “It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union.” > > No fire, no fury, simply “a full retaliatory response”. It’s still the same thing though. It only ‘sounds’ nicer. That’s the argument? ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/192 "2017-08-10T16:22:34Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You’d be hard pressed to condemn and panic if Trump started throwing nukes around at random. The threat of that I put at zero. So do those better in the know. The people that don’t need a reality check. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/193 "2017-08-10T16:25:41Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > It’s still the same thing though. It only ‘sounds’ nicer. What do you think diplomacy _is?_ > [@](#): > > That’s the argument? Not all of it. You’re forgetting that Trump has a history of wanting to use nukes and not understanding why he can’t. Now he’s in charge of them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/194 "2017-08-10T16:25:54Z")
I am listening to local right-wing radio talk shows, and they are currently taking solace in the apparent fact that prominent people on Guam, including the Governor, don’t seem to be taking this possible threat to their island as seriously as we on the mainland do. What they don’t mention is that Guam makes it’s money from tourism, and even a hint of panic will cause a wave of cancellations that could do serious damage to their economy. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/195 "2017-08-10T16:27:14Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > The threat of that I put at zero. So do those better in the know. > > The people that don’t need a reality check. I didn’t say it was a possibility. I was addressing the fact that you have your head so far up Trump’s ass that you’re sharing eyeballs. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/196 "2017-08-10T16:29:37Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I didn’t say it was a possibility. I was addressing the fact that you have your head so far up Trump’s ass that you’re sharing eyeballs. It’s like an x-rated version of “Being John Malkovich”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/197 "2017-08-10T16:30:21Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I didn’t say it was a possibility. There is a not-zero chance that he will want to use nukes. Let’s hope cooler heads prevail if that time comes. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/198 "2017-08-10T16:39:46Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I didn’t say it was a possibility. I was addressing the fact that you have your head so far up Trump’s ass that you’re sharing eyeballs. I see. When you say one thing you mean something else entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/199 "2017-08-10T16:40:00Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > There is a not-zero chance that he will want to use nukes. Hell, if he ever does it’ll very likely be tweeted. Which will get ignored by the brass much like the one about getting transgender people out of the military. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/200 "2017-08-10T16:42:29Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Meh. He told them in no uncertain terms what would happen to them if they struck first. No mention of us striking first, just a reiteration of our long standing policy towards a nuclear attack on us. That’s a possible way to parse Trump’s meaning, but it’s certainly not the plain text of his words: _North Korea had best not make any more threats to the United States. They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen._ A first attack by North Korea is not a “threat.” So the plain meaning of Trump’s words is not what you summarized: he’s not limiting his warning to ‘they struck first.’ Perhaps your meaning is what Trump was thinking. But the problem is that especially in diplomacy, it’s important to communicate clearly. Sometimes this involves using accepted diplomatic norms. (“The gravest possible consequences.”) Sometimes plain speech can suffice. But in no event does Trump’s whacky version of of “Guess what I really mean,” do an adequate job. This was always the most serious danger with Trump: his inability to hew to accepted norms. Less politely: he’s a dangerous amateur; a baby with a loaded Uzi in a room full of explosives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136.md?page=11)