# What the world really needs now is "fire & fury" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136 "2017-08-08T22:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/241 "2017-08-11T01:02:10Z")
Would that “count”? Serious question. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/242 "2017-08-11T01:21:40Z")
General who never ordered the launch: “Huh? Trump tweeted to initiate Armageddon? Last Thursday? Eh, I wasn’t online, and my phone was out of charge, and we really don’t get good internet at home, so, no, I didn’t see it… what a shame (wink, wink)…” ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/243 "2017-08-11T01:28:47Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The problem is, what do they do if he does the typical Trump thing and _tweet_ the damned order to launch? Nothing would happen in terms of a nuke being launched. Joe and Mika would freak out and call for him to be confined to a psychiatric hospital. Various Trump spokespeople would go on CNN and claim that he didn’t really mean the words he said to be understood as real words , that it was a joke, that he was talking about some sort of symbolic policy nuke, or Benghazi e-mails. Then Trump would tweet out that no he meant a real nuke and that he wanted it launched now. The guys with the launch codes would roll their eyes and do nothing and the spokespeople would talk about the virtues of unpredictability and how Trump is a genius for saying shit he doesn’t really mean then Trump would tweet again and call Mattis. McMaster and Tillerson traitors for not helping him launch the nukes. Then all the MSNBC heads would develop sudden affection for Mattis, McMaster and Tillerson and clutch their pearls about Trumps insanity. And the GOPs in the House and Senate will talk about how insignificant a few nukes are and that they need to put this aside and go back to not legislating. Then Merkel might call and ask him to stop tweeting, we will know when he threatens to nuke Sweden because I’m pretty sure he doesn’t know where she’s from. Then the WH staff would send Ivanka into the Oval Office with a low cut top and some chocolate cake with Xanax pills inside. Two scoops !! Or TL/DR - just another Wednesday ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/244 "2017-08-11T01:37:20Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Would that “count”? Serious question. He thought it counted when he ordered transgendered military personnel kicked out. > [@digs](#): > > General who never ordered the launch: “Huh? Trump tweeted to initiate Armageddon? Last Thursday? Eh, I wasn’t online, and my phone was out of charge, and we really don’t get good internet at home, so, no, I didn’t see it… what a shame (wink, wink)…” The problem is the whole world would know he tried to launch rather than it (hopefully) kept inside the White House. Or at least known later that the madman was thwarted. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/245 "2017-08-11T03:00:33Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > You’re avoiding the question, as you’re wont to do, by asking another question. > > I’ll answer your question when you answer mine. Sorry-I was off with some friends dining. Just need a bit of clarification: 1. Who all is on the list of allies, and 2. Who else is likely to start lobbing missiles if we lob them at North Korea, and 3. What’s happening to South Korea what with all these missiles flying overhead? edited to add: _For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong._ -H. L. Mencken ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/246 "2017-08-11T04:15:50Z")
You’re such a weasel. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/247 "2017-08-11T04:38:55Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The problem is, what do they do if he does the typical Trump thing and _tweet_ the damned order to launch? The US military swears a loyalty oath to the constitution, not the president. It is conceivable that the military could refuse to follow the PotUS. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/248 "2017-08-11T09:07:34Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > You’re such a weasel. I’m sorry-Did I go off-script? In the _real_ world, those are legitimate questions that fucking matter. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/249 "2017-08-11T10:29:50Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > A one-off. Would you say the President’s subsequent “if they even think about” threat has now created a “two-off?” Would you like to amend your prediction? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/250 "2017-08-11T10:37:05Z")
The question **Czarcasm** was asked by **HeweyLogan** : _That is if North Korea Nukes the United states or its allies first, should we respond in kind?_ > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sorry-I was off with some friends dining. Just need a bit of clarification: > > 1. Who all is on the list of allies, and > 2. Who else is likely to start lobbing missiles if we lob them at North Korea, and > 3. What’s happening to South Korea what with all these missiles flying overhead? > > edited to add: > > _For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong._ -H. L. Mencken I agree that this is weaseling. None of these are additional clarifications needed to flesh out the hypothetical. The hypothetical takes place now, today. Now, perhaps **Czarcasm** means to say: The answer is no: we should not, because of concerns about who else is likely to start lobbing missiles if we lob them at North Korea, and what may happen to South Korea what with all these missiles flying overhead, and uncertainty of what allies might support our action. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/251 "2017-08-11T12:21:01Z")
China is apparently signalling that it will not intervene if the DPRK launches missiles threatening the US and the US retaliates. > [@](#): > > BEIJING — China won’t come to North Korea’s help if it launches missiles threatening U.S. soil and there is retaliation, a state-owned newspaper warned on Friday, but it would intervene if Washington strikes first. > **[Beijing warns Pyongyang: You’re on your own if you go after the United States](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/china-warns-north-korea-youre-on-your-own-if-you-go-after-the-us/2017/08/11/a01a4396-7e68-11e7-9026-4a0a64977c92_story.html?utm_term=.0747c9c89e91)** > > China would still defend North Korea if Washington attacked first or tried regime change. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/252 "2017-08-11T13:03:05Z")
No Trump fan here, though I suppose you could find bigger haters than me. IMHO: I am not so sure I can blame Trump if things devolve into military conflict with NK. This situation has been brewing since 1953, or sooner. Now, unlike the situation in Iraq, we have a crazy regime that is testing nuclear bombs and launching missiles. How does this end well? I’d like to think there is an acceptable way out that doesn’t result in hundreds of thousands of casualties, (and I’d sure like Trump to at least try to act like an adult once in a while), but maybe there isn’t. With Hillary in the WH, we’d still have a crazy regime testing nuclear bombs and launching missiles. How does this end well? Hopefully, the 'dope can explain to me why I’m stupid and what is the reasonable way to deal with NK. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/253 "2017-08-11T13:34:50Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > What I’m asking you is: After Kim Jong hears Trump’s words, in what way do you think he will respond that is of benefit to the US? Nothing better or worse than what he’s said already. As to benefit, how has what we’ve said and done (diplomatically) before been to our advantage so far? He has pursued nukes practically unimpeded (and against what they’ve agreed to) and threatened to use them against us as soon as he can. Short of launching the missiles I fail to see how we’ve stopped him and his run-up to getting where he wants to be - that is, able to nuke us and threaten to nuke us. > [@Bricker](#): > > Would you say the President’s subsequent “if they even think about” threat has now created a “two-off?” > > Would you like to amend your prediction? Sure. The tough talk will continue back and forth. Only with us getting a little more pissed and threatening ourselves. Brinkmanship. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/254 "2017-08-11T13:37:58Z")
It doesn’t matter who is in the White House, if someone attacks the US and kills a bunch of people there’s going to be a military reply. We saw that with 9/11 and we saw that with Pearl Harbor. If someone drops a nuke on the US they’re going to get at least one in return. I don’t think there’s any sane nation on Earth that doubts that, especially given that the one nation on the planet that actually has used nukes is the US. I also doubt any nation is going to quibble with an attacked nation responding in kind. Flip it around: if someone nuked St. Petersburg would we stand in the way of Russia responding in kind? Why would we? The details leading up to such an exchange, that could be affected by who’s in the White House, as could the details of what happens afterward. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/255 "2017-08-11T13:42:23Z")
It would be interesting to see what happens if NK stopped threatening the United States and instead just started threatening Japan and South Korea on a weekly basis. Would Trump allow Kim to continue threats, just not those aimed at the United States? I’m not predicting that this is what’ll happen, but it crossed my mind as a temporary face-saving strategy for Kim now that Trump might have called his bluff a little. I’m no expert on NK but it struck me as a possibility that Kim might be wary of threats from within his regime and that projecting toughness is how he survives, so any sort of appearance of backing down could cost him. He might view his ability to threaten someone as a means for ensuring his own survival. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/256 "2017-08-11T13:47:46Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It doesn’t matter who is in the White House, if someone attacks the US and kills a bunch of people there’s going to be a military reply. We saw that with 9/11 and we saw that with Pearl Harbor. > > If someone drops a nuke on the US they’re going to get at least one in return. > > I don’t think there’s any sane nation on Earth that doubts that, especially given that the one nation on the planet that actually has used nukes is the US. I also doubt any nation is going to quibble with an attacked nation responding in kind. Flip it around: if someone nuked St. Petersburg would we stand in the way of Russia responding in kind? Why would we? > > The details leading up to such an exchange, that could be affected by who’s in the White House, as could the details of what happens afterward. A military response is certainly appropriate, but a nuclear one is not, not for NK. If “someone” nuked st. petersberg, we may not stand in the way, but if that “someone” was one of the countries in our backyard, we may not like it if they used nukes. If it were say, Guatemala, we may not much appreciate Russia sending their nukes that close to us. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/257 "2017-08-11T13:54:00Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Sure. The tough talk will continue back and forth. Only with us getting a little more pissed and threatening ourselves. Brinkmanship. I’m inclined to agree with this much. The war of words will escalate with both sides looking more and more childish. But nothing beyond that will happen because neither side is going to throw the first punch. NK has everything to lose, while the US has nothing to gain by escalating this into an actual hot conflict. If this is as far as it goes - and the most recent exchange appears like both sides are starting to tone down the rhetoric - Trump will have succeeded in daring KJU to put up or shut up. If so, we’ll never hear the end of the crowing about how big of an internet tough guy Trump is. But at least nobody will be throwing nuclear rockets around and catastrophic loss of life will have been avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/258 "2017-08-11T14:04:51Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Sure. The tough talk will continue back and forth. Only with us getting a little more pissed and threatening ourselves. Brinkmanship. In your view, is this the optimal approach? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/259 "2017-08-11T14:25:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > A military response is certainly appropriate, but a nuclear one is not, not for NK. Not saying what is “appropriate” here, I’m saying what will happen. If someone drops a nuke on _any_ country that owns a nuke they’re going to get one in reply, “appropriate” or not. > [@](#): > > If “someone” nuked st. petersberg, we may not stand in the way, but if that “someone” was one of the countries in our backyard, we may not like it if they used nukes. If it were say, Guatemala, we may not much appreciate Russia sending their nukes that close to us. We may not appreciate it, but our military will certainly understand they why of it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/260 "2017-08-11T14:28:45Z")
So: We’ve reached the point where intelligent Trumpists (if this term is not an oxymoron) defend their President with “There is a strong non-zero probability that he will NOT launch a nuclear attack.” :smack: > [@octopus](#): > > I am just not 100% certain that Trump is going to nuke North Korean … > > Do you think the chance is 100%? … I don’t think the chance is 100%. Sorry, I’m not part of the hive mind. I’ve read that octopuses are, by far, the most intelligent invertebrate. But if this is the best they can do, they still have a long way to go to achieve human-level intelligence. Note that the defendant accused of using the auxiliary verb “will” did not attach a “certainly” or even “probably.” Some of his sentences were hyperbolic, yes, but less so than almost any sentence we see typed by the board’s right-wingers. Enter: Pedantic Jester, stage left: > [@Bricker](#): > > Thank goodness. > > The actual facts are: > > Trump is very unlikely to order a war against North Korea, in absolute terms. > > Trump is VERY likely to order a war against North Korea, when compared to prior US Presidents, or indeed to any other genuine prospective US presidential candidate. This is (or should be) worrisome. > > It also should be possible to accurately describe. Congratulations, Counselor! You reached a correct conclusion — although you couldn’t resist your anal-retentive instinct to play the logic-robot. Here’s another factoid to program into your logic bot: _ **Even a 1% chance the short-fingered sociopath will launch a nuclear strike is much too high.** _ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136.md?page=14)