# What the world really needs now is "fire & fury" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136 "2017-08-08T22:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/41 "2017-08-09T07:05:51Z")
Not even the thread of nuclear war is enough for you not to be an asshole who attacks liberals, is it **octopus**? This is fucking serious. You are acting like a fucking psychopath. Fucking stop it. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/42 "2017-08-09T07:15:27Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Yes, logically, of course I see it. I was just observing that when the _Chinese are the grownups in the room…_ \ Because China is busy trying to start their own nuclear war with India. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/43 "2017-08-09T07:19:03Z")
So during this escalation of tensions with North Korea, the president of the United States is a Coked-Up Failure Piñata; what could possibly go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/44 "2017-08-09T07:48:22Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > What Trump did, though, was threaten to retaliate if they “make any more threats”. That’s just stupid. Obviously, they weren’t going to stop making threats, and now whatever speck of credibility this administration had left is flushed down the drain. To paraphrase Mr. Burns, I’m beginning to suspect that Donald Trump is not the skilled negotiator we thought he was. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/45 "2017-08-09T09:55:23Z")
I saw the news today. I have people I really care about in Guam. This is not okay. ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/46 "2017-08-09T10:39:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Do you think the chance is 100%? If you don’t I don’t see what your issue is with me saying I don’t think the chance is 100%. Sorry, I’m not part of the hive mind. I agree with you that we are nowhere near 100%. Of course you would not be okay with a 100% certainty that nukes will be used. So, where do you start to get concerned? When does concern about a catastrophic outcome start to outweigh your partisanship? 50%? 75% Do you agree that we are at least, lets say, 10% more likely to engage in a shooting war with NK than we were last month? You okay with that, as long as Trump is seen as a tough guy? I’m not. Trump and Kim Jung On are two peas in a pod. Both fake internet tough guys that somehow got themselves in a position where their toy soldiers and toy guns are real. Before Trump took office, I would have said the chance of armed conflict with NK, possibly leading to the use of nuclear weapons, would have been less than 1%. Not non-existent, but extremely unlikely. IMHO, we are well above 1% now. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/47 "2017-08-09T11:34:50Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > I agree with you that we are nowhere near 100%. Nobody has said or implied that there is a 100% chance that Trump will start a nuclear war. There is a 100% chance that **octopus** enjoys wrestling with strawmen, despite being pinned by them almost 100% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/48 "2017-08-09T11:42:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not even the thread of nuclear war is enough for you not to be an asshole who attacks liberals, is it **octopus**? > > This is fucking serious. You are acting like a fucking psychopath. Fucking stop it. You off your meds? If you fools are so certain that Trump will and not may nuke N. Korea why aren’t you doing something more productive with your time? Rather than directing your false, hyperbolic outrage at a random poster on a irrelevant board you ought to spend some time with a loved one or something. And my post wasn’t even an attack on poor little liberals you simpleminded fool. It was a post questioning the statement that a nuclear attack was 100% likely. Dishonest, hysterical, misplaced sense of priorities, and a potty mouth are not an endearing set of traits BigT. You must be fun on a date. I tell you what. If nuclear war seemed imminent and certain to me, I’d be out back digging me a fall out shelter instead of deliberately and persistently misreading innocuous posts with the intent of working myself up in a self righteous fury. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/49 "2017-08-09T11:42:40Z")
Which when you think about it, is kinda weird. Eight prehensile flexible arms with suckers on them vs some old clothes on a stick. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/50 "2017-08-09T11:43:53Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Nobody has said or implied that there is a 100% chance that Trump will start a nuclear war. Thank goodness. > [@Barbarian](#): > > Trump will order war against North Korea. He will order a nuclear launch. > > He will do this _solely_ to distract the American public from his own problems. It does seem a little mean to call **Barbarian** “nobody,” though. The actual facts are: Trump is very unlikely to order a war against North Korea, in absolute terms. Trump is VERY likely to order a war against North Korea, when compared to prior US Presidents, or indeed to any other genuine prospective US presidential candidate. This is (or should be) worrisome. It also should be possible to accurately describe. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/51 "2017-08-09T11:44:56Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I saw the news today. I have people I really care about in Guam. This is not okay. I was born there and I have family and friends there, so excuse me if I take this seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/52 "2017-08-09T11:47:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Thank goodness. > > It does seem a little mean to call **Barbarian** “nobody,” though. IF it happens, the very _least_ that will be said to all you who downplayed this crisis will be “I told you so.” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/53 "2017-08-09T11:48:14Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > North Korea has already threatened U.S. territory. > > No fucking shit, Sherlock. North Korea always makes threats. It’s what North Korea does. > > Anyone who would expect North Korea not to make threats is stupid and lacks any experience dealing with belligerent people. > Trump will order war against North Korea. He will order a nuclear launch. > > He will do this _solely_ to distract the American public from his own problems. > > With any luck, the U.S. military will ignore him. > > But at this point, I will not be surprised if the U.S. military takes out Trump in a coup. Hello strawman. Will. Not might. That implies 100%. > [@octopus](#): > > You honestly believe Trump is going to order a nuclear attack on N. Korea? :smack: My “psychopathic, liberal attacking, assholish:eek::eek::eek:” post. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Nobody has said or implied that there is a 100% chance that Trump will start a nuclear war. There is a 100% chance that **octopus** enjoys wrestling with strawmen, despite being pinned by them almost 100% of the time. Not sure if you even read the thread. But don’t let that stop you from inane comments. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/54 "2017-08-09T11:55:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Hello strawman. > Will. Not might. That implies 100%. > > My “psychopathic, liberal attacking, assholish:eek::eek::eek:” post. > > Not sure if you even read the thread. But don’t let that stop you from inane comments. We have good reason to fear for the lives of our friends, our family and ourselves, and you want to play wordgames? The psychopathic president that you are supporting has just pushed a blowhard into declaring that the place of my birth and the home of my family is the declared target of a nuclear attack, so why don’t you beg, borrow or steal a little human dignity _and back the fuck off._ ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/55 "2017-08-09T11:58:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Washington, D.C., May 29, 2015 — President Richard Nixon and his national security adviser Henry Kissinger believed they could compel “the other side” to back down during crises in the Middle East and Vietnam by “push[ing] so many chips into the pot” that Nixon would seem ‘crazy’ enough to “go much further,” according to newly declassified documents published today by the National Security Archive. > > The documents include a 1972 Kissinger memorandum of conversation published today for the first time in which Kissinger explains to Defense Department official Gardner Tucker that Nixon’s strategy was to make “the other side … think we might be ‘crazy’ and might really go much further” — Nixon’s Madman Theory notion of intimidating adversaries such as North Vietnam and the Soviet Union to bend them to Washington’s will in diplomatic negotiations > > Nixon’s and Kissinger’s Madman strategy during the Vietnam War included veiled nuclear threats intended to intimidate Hanoi and its patrons in Moscow. The story is recounted in a new book, Nixon’s Nuclear Specter: The Secret Alert of 1969, Madman Diplomacy, and the Vietnam War, co-authored by Jeffrey Kimball, Miami University professor emeritus, and William Burr, who directs the Archive’s Nuclear History Documentation Project. Research for the book, which uncovers the inside story of White House Vietnam policymaking during Nixon’s first year in office, drew on hundreds of formerly top secret and secret records obtained by the authors as well as interviews with former government officials. > **[Nixon, Kissinger, and the Madman Strategy during Vietnam War](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb517-Nixon-Kissinger-and-the-Madman-Strategy-during-Vietnam-War/)** > > Newly Declassified Documents Show That Nixon Wanted Moscow and Hanoi to Think He Might be 'Crazy' and 'Might Really Go Further' in Attacking North Vietnam The thing about Trump is, nobody has to “pus any chips into the pot” to convince people he’s crazy enough to escalate to nuclear war. Even in this country, plenty of people are sure that he’s capable of it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/56 "2017-08-09T11:59:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think if Kim nukes Guam there is a very high probability the US will nuke North Korea in return. So the question then becomes one of whether or not North Korea will actually nuke the island. Or some other US territory. I don’t think NK makes the first move unless they believe that a preemptive attack is imminent. The problem is, what exactly might make them think that? It could be anything as far as we know. It could be something that happens with an otherwise normal joint military exercise that, for whatever reason, merely _appears_ to be unusual in the eyes of the NK military and appears to signal a surprise attack. This is why Trump’s (and even Tillerson’s) downgrading of diplomacy’s importance is such a critical error. Not that we have great relations with NK but communication channels help us avoid misunderstandings and mistakes that can set off a chain of events. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/57 "2017-08-09T12:01:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > We have good reason to fear for the lives of our friends, our family and ourselves, and you want to play wordgames? The psychopathic president that you are supporting has just pushed a blowhard into declaring that the place of my birth and the home of my family is the declared target of a nuclear attack, so why don’t you beg, borrow or steal a little human dignity _and back the fuck off._ In my view, it’s possible to both harbor legitimate concern about Trump’s foolhardy and absurd attempt to (metaphorically) douse fire with gasoline AND to accurately speak about the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/58 "2017-08-09T12:02:38Z")
I checked twitter RIGHT as this popped up. > Wonder if he’ll tweet part 2 ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/59 "2017-08-09T12:06:16Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I checked twitter RIGHT as this popped up. > > [x.com](https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/895252459152711680) > > Wonder if he’ll tweet part 2 On the anniversary of the Nagasaki bombing, no less. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/60 "2017-08-09T12:06:39Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I don’t think NK makes the first move unless they believe that a preemptive attack is imminent. The problem is, what exactly might make them think that? It could be anything as far as we know. It could be something that happens with an otherwise normal joint military exercise that, for whatever reason, merely _appears_ to be unusual in the eyes of the NK military and appears to signal a surprise attack. This is why Trump’s (and even Tillerson’s) downgrading of diplomacy’s importance is such a critical error. Not that we have great relations with NK but communication channels help us avoid misunderstandings and mistakes that can set off a chain of events. The most dramatic problem I see here is that both sides are represented by leaders who are willing to use absurd rhetoric to advance their positions. It’s absolutely appropriate to make all involved understand that the US would treat an attack on its soil with the gravest possible consequences. But to claim that threats alone will provoke an armed response is madness, utter madness, especially delivered to a national leader who is already well-known for his own intemperate responses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136.md?page=4)