# What the world really needs now is "fire & fury" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136 "2017-08-08T22:14:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/141 "2017-08-09T22:33:32Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Who would you want to deal with this instead? > > Saying anyone else is cop out. Name someone and how their policy would obviously be better. > > If not that then what would you (and the hysterical paranoids early in this thread) think our response/policy/action should be? Hillary Clinton, George Herbert Walker Bush (the Elder), Bill Clinton, Richard Nixon, Barack Obama, Larry The Cable Guy, Mister Bean, uhhh anybody else I guess? ---
**Author:** ![MindsEye\_Watering](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindseye_watering/32/3619_2.png) [@MindsEye\_Watering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindsEye_Watering)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/142 "2017-08-09T22:55:08Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Hillary Clinton, George Herbert Walker Bush (the Elder), Bill Clinton, Richard Nixon, Barack Obama, Larry The Cable Guy, Mister Bean, > > uhhh anybody else I guess? Bozo the Clown or Zippy the Pinhead would be better than this weak and failing “president” we have now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/143 "2017-08-09T23:40:28Z")
> [@MindsEye\_Watering](#): > > Zippy the Pinhead “All life is a blur of Republicans and meat.” - Zippy ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/144 "2017-08-09T23:41:50Z")
To **Drunky Smurf** : > [@SingleMalt](#): > > So this makes you the unconscious of the board, I guess. More the id, I think. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/145 "2017-08-10T00:11:59Z")
[**North Korea ‘seriously examining’ a strike near Guam**](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/09/politics/north-korea-considering-near-guam-strike/index.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*KCNA published a wire criticizing Trump for having “let out a load of nonsense about ‘fire and fury,’ failing to grasp the on-going grave situation. This is extremely getting on the nerves of the infuriated Hwasong artillerymen of the KPA [Korean People’s Army].” > > The article goes on to state that “sound dialogue is not possible with such a guy bereft of reason and only absolute force can work on him.” > > North Korea’s military will have a plan to send Hwasong 12 missiles toward Guam by “mid-August and report it to the commander-in-chief of the DPRK nuclear force and wait for his order,” according to KCNA…\*\* Now what? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/146 "2017-08-10T00:23:12Z")
Ooh, I’ll play! I’d rather have George W. Bush in charge than Trump. Or a lot of other people, but W is on the list. And the proper response would be one that was coordinated with South Korea, China, and Japan, and probably based on contingencies agreed upon by January at the latest. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/147 "2017-08-10T00:34:44Z")
> [@OwnRules](#): > > [**North Korea ‘seriously examining’ a strike near Guam**](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/09/politics/north-korea-considering-near-guam-strike/index.html) > > Now what? Keep that shit up and sooner or later they’re going to actually hurt somebody. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/148 "2017-08-10T00:36:17Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Which one would that be? 😃 The fat one with the funny looking hair and tiny hands. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/149 "2017-08-10T01:02:54Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I was hearing it to the tune of “What the world needs now is love, sweet love.” :eek: That would be the obvious one, but the Cracker song contains the a propos line: “What the world needs now is a new kind of tension, 'cause the old one just bores me to death.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/150 "2017-08-10T02:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > “This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.” –Admiral Painter, _The Hunt for Red October_ The problem in dealing with a country we barely speak to except in (mutual) insults and threats is that the possibility of an action being taken because the result will turn out in the way the one taking action believes is in his favor…but that may not be how his opponent sees it. Two thought examples: 1. The N. Koreans, sometime in the next few weeks, launch several missiles that land within, say, 300 miles of Guam. They are not armed and the only thing killed is the fish that the rockets land on. Kim and his high command feel that this act will intimidate the US and lead to negotiations to ‘buy off’ the North. But maybe Trump sees it as an attack and orders an attack (non-nuclear) on the North’s missile systems, killing hundreds. Trump may think that this show of strength will cow the N. Koreans, as happened with Libya in 1986 (remember the ‘Line of Death?’). And we proceed from there…see next for my surmises… 2. President Trump gets advance knowledge of a N. Korean missile launch and orders a cruise missile attack that destroys the rocket and kills dozens of N. Korean military. He feels that this ‘strong action’ will demonstrate that he is not fooling around and cause the North to pull in it’s horns (and give him a ‘victory’). But the North reacts by mobilizing and moving tens if not hundreds of thousands of troops toward the DMZ, which causes South Korea, fearing imminent invasion, to launch a ‘preventive assault’ against the N. Korean Artillery emplacements. Kim, faced with ‘use it or lose it’ scenario, goes full-tilt with an all-out attack and…who knows what happens next. It’s quite possible neither option will occur; or one we haven’t even considered will take place. But with both sides making decisions based on what they _ **think** _ the other guys is going to do in reaction to their move, the chances of stumbling into a conflict are reasonably high; not guaranteed, by any means, but still a lot higher than I’m comfortable with. IMHO as always; YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/151 "2017-08-10T05:46:05Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Who would you want to deal with this instead? > > Saying anyone else is cop out. Name someone and how their policy would obviously be better. > > If not that then what would you (and the hysterical paranoids early in this thread) think our response/policy/action should be? I agree that I’d rather have George W. Bush deal with this and I hated W. As for what I’d do, I would admit what is obviously true: North Korea has won, they have got what they wanted and I would let them have it. North Korea wants to be treated like a normal state. They want to be at the table in international affairs, they want legitimacy for their rule. The fact that they have nuclear missiles capable of hitting us, makes that true. Nukes are like tortoise shell glasses, they confer a certain respectability and status. This is a bitter pill to swallow, N. Korea is truly a murderous dictatorship, but we need to acknowledge that they have done what they set out to do. Making them a pariah state isn’t working, it’s time to change tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/152 "2017-08-10T06:05:49Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You honestly believe Trump is going to order a nuclear attack on N. Korea? :smack: Yes. A year ago, I _honestly believed_ there is no way in hell Trump would be elected president. I have learned the hard way not to underestimate the unfortunate outcomes from large amounts of stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/153 "2017-08-10T08:53:48Z")
One thing about the GWB boomlet here: [he’s the one who scrapped the Agreed Framework](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/why-president-bushs-north-korea-failure-is-important-to-remember)that had kept NK from developing nukes in exchange for food and other aid. Shrubby thought that this constituted ‘appeasement’ and maybe it was, but it kept NK from developing nukes for most of a decade. And what was the alternative? He didn’t have one, so NK became a nuclear power during the early 00’s. And of course, Shrub’s invasion of Iraq is the big reason that small hostile countries feel the need to have nukes as a deterrent. The fact that we could go into an Iraq-sized country and topple the strongman as easily as we did (no matter how bad the aftermath was for us) put the rest of the Axis of Evil on notice that maybe the U.S. Army isn’t gonna come barging in next week, but “just in case, we’d better get a bomb.” So Dubya’s already been tested in this arena, and flunked. He might still be better than Trump, but only marginally. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/154 "2017-08-10T09:38:41Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > …And of course, Shrub’s invasion of Iraq is the big reason that small hostile countries feel the need to have nukes as a deterrent. The fact that we could go into an Iraq-sized country and topple the strongman as easily as we did (no matter how bad the aftermath was for us) put the rest of the Axis of Evil on notice that maybe the U.S. Army isn’t gonna come barging in next week, but “just in case, we’d better get a bomb.”… Bingo, the invasion of Iraq made it clear that the only way to not be at the mercy of the US military was to develop nukes. Again, I said that I preferred W to Trump and that I hated W. One thing W didn’t do was to engage in bizarre, off the cuff coke fueled ramblings. That’s a low bar, but that’s where we are. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/155 "2017-08-10T10:49:50Z")
The right wing has gone bananas. A pair of tweets retweeted by Donald: > [@](#): > > John Bolton > Our country & civilians are vulnerable today because @BarackObama did not believe in national missile defense. Let’s never forget that. Uh- the nuclear modernization that Dumb Donald is taking credit for was started by Obama. > [@](#): > > @TheFive > “@POTUS being unpredictable is a big asset, North Korea knew exactly what President Obama was going to do.” No, they’re confusing being unpredictable with being ill-prepared, undisciplined, childish, and stupid. Predictability in foreign affairs is a good thing. Brashness and threatening others is a bad thing. First thing they have to do- nominate an ambassador to South Korea. They need somebody with authority in Seoul that they can address their concerns with. Then shut the fuck up and see what effect the new sanctions have. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/156 "2017-08-10T10:58:49Z")
Wouldn’t it be something if President Obama showed up at the White House and just beat the living piss out of Trump? ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/157 "2017-08-10T11:03:53Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Bingo, the invasion of Iraq made it clear that the only way to not be at the mercy of the US military was to develop nukes. US policy of the period might be pithily described as: “If they possess oil, send weapons of mass destruction. If they possess weapons of mass destruction, send oil.” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/158 "2017-08-10T12:16:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > One thing about the GWB boomlet here: [he’s the one who scrapped the Agreed Framework](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/why-president-bushs-north-korea-failure-is-important-to-remember)that had kept NK from developing nukes in exchange for food and other aid. > > Shrubby thought that this constituted ‘appeasement’ and maybe it was, but it kept NK from developing nukes for most of a decade. And what was the alternative? He didn’t have one, so NK became a nuclear power during the early 00’s. > > And of course, Shrub’s invasion of Iraq is the big reason that small hostile countries feel the need to have nukes as a deterrent. The fact that we could go into an Iraq-sized country and topple the strongman as easily as we did (no matter how bad the aftermath was for us) put the rest of the Axis of Evil on notice that maybe the U.S. Army isn’t gonna come barging in next week, but “just in case, we’d better get a bomb.” > > So Dubya’s already been tested in this arena, and flunked. He might still be better than Trump, but only marginally. Agreed. The hardliners in Bush’s cabinet believed that it was important to establish and maintain American military capabilities that were vastly superior to the nearest military challenger. And of course it also advocated policies of regime change and military engagement on grounds of America’s perceived national security and nothing else - international consensus be damned. These policies aren’t just relevant to North Korea, but to Russia as well. America needs to really start accepting that there are limits to its military capabilities and there are even limits to its economic and political clout as well. It needs to accept that it might just start having to talk its way out of conflicts rather than just trying to impose its raw power and will on others. That in no way means that we have to tolerate bad behavior, but the days of America acting unilaterally to dominate other countries and getting away with it are over. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/159 "2017-08-10T12:28:48Z")
Bush’s hardliners also never understood that America’s real strength came from soft power, not military power; that our cultural and economic influence was much more responsible for our standing and prosperity than our military. But this is the pit so let’s call Trump names, my new favorite is The Cum of All Our Fears. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136/160 "2017-08-10T12:34:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The right wing has gone bananas. A pair of tweets retweeted by Donald: > > Uh- the nuclear modernization that Dumb Donald is taking credit for was started by Obama. > > No, they’re confusing being unpredictable with being ill-prepared, undisciplined, childish, and stupid. > Predictability in foreign affairs is a good thing. Brashness and threatening others is a bad thing. First thing they have to do- nominate an ambassador to South Korea. They need somebody with authority in Seoul that they can address their concerns with. Then shut the fuck up and see what effect the new sanctions have. Yep, this is the real danger that we’re in now. John Bolton gradually had his profile lowered as George W Bush, the individual, realized how badly he had been misled by the likes of Cheney, but Bolton has a lot of fanboys on the right for his chest beating and tough talk (and the fact that he looks like a walrus). Trump doesn’t listen to advice but watches a lot of Fox News and that’s a terrible combination. This is not the time to go with his gut, especially when he has no idea what he’s wading into. There are scant military and diplomatic communication channels between the US and North Korea, if they exist at all. If North Korea or the United States misinterprets the actions of the other, we’re going to end up having a disaster with consequences that will last decades. In one sense, Trump’s bluster and the immediate political reaction at home may already have potentially permanent consequences that nobody has really discussed, and that has to do with the strategic alliance in Asia. In fact Sen. Lindsay Graham made a very revealing comment that might have ripple effects: > [@](#): > > “Put yourself in President Trump’s shoes for a moment — where does your allegiance lie?” he said. “Isn’t your primary purpose as President of the United States to protect the American homeland from a nuclear weapon attack by a guy like Kim Jong-un?… He’s gonna pick homeland defense over regional stability and he has to.” > > [GOP senator endorses war with North Korea because the destruction will be in the Pacific – ThinkProgress](https://thinkprogress.org/sen-graham-promotes-war-with-north-korea-because-it-will-be-in-the-region-not-here-in-america-70e3d06f9112/) And this is what both the political right and left wings in Japan have been saying for a long time, which is that the United States military alliance serves the American interest, not their own. This has probably been one of the goals of the Kim regime (and one reason why China has been willing to tolerate their behavior): to weaken and break the alliance so that they can deal with countries like Japan and South Korea one on one, rather than as part of a global alliance manipulated by an external superpower. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-the-world-really-needs-now-is-fire-fury/793136.md?page=9)