# "What they're doing is illegal in the US"...and does an overzealous mod have a CITE?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 30, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693 "2005-12-30T05:57:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/1 "2005-12-30T05:57:52Z")
> [@Samclem](#): > > What they’re doing is illegal in the US. And that’s where our host is, and that’s the end of it. I am referring to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=351702) where a poster asks if an online service ([allofmp3.com](http://allofmp3.com)) is legal. Samclem steps up with his gavel in hand and declares that the service is illegal, without a cite, clearly having not [RTFA](http://www.museekster.com/allofmp3faq.htm#Is%20using%20Allofmp3%20legal?): > [@](#): > > Downloading from Allofmp3 is legal for U.S. Citizens, as long as the files are for private use and not for distribution. It’s not like they didn’t cite US code or anything, or that three established posters had not fairly directly iterated the point that the service _is_ legal (and what better than for the sake that “where our host is” people are innocent until proven guilty…fucking right!). I think it’s fine that Samclem has a differing opinion, and I am certainly not asking that anyone take the referenced website as an authority. I simply encourage him to start a thread in Great Debates, or better yet, the pit, where cites are not required and you can declare your not-well-founded opinion as if it were fact. The only way you can do such a thing in GQ is if you are abusing your moderator powers. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/2 "2005-12-30T06:06:24Z")
My bitch is my cite! what? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/3 "2005-12-30T06:11:43Z")
Your cite is my bitch! ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/4 "2005-12-30T06:18:07Z")
This same thing happened to me a while back when I posted a thread about suicide. I had to actually cite _ **an article by Cecil** _ that stated that suicide is not, and never has been, illegal in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/5 "2005-12-30T06:20:28Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > This same thing happened to me a while back when I posted a thread about suicide. I had to actually cite _ **an article by Cecil** _ that stated that suicide is not, and never has been, illegal in the USA. EDIT: I had to send that article to the mod before my thread would be unlocked. > **[Interesting ways to kill yourself.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=266129)** > > Say, for whatever reason, you have decided that it is time to die. What would be your ideal way to do it? Forget any crap about resources or money, you want to die and you wanna may it cool, interesting or memorable what would you do? I was watching... ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/6 "2005-12-30T06:23:22Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > I am referring to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=351702) where a poster asks if an online service ([allofmp3.com](http://allofmp3.com)) is legal. Samclem steps up with his gavel in hand and declares that the service is illegal, without a cite, clearly having not [RTFA](http://www.museekster.com/allofmp3faq.htm#Is%20using%20Allofmp3%20legal?):It’s not like they didn’t cite US code or anything, or that three established posters had not fairly directly iterated the point that the service _is_ legal (and what better than for the sake that “where our host is” people are innocent until proven guilty…fucking right!). I think it’s rather interesting that you’re quoting a site that has a [disclaimer](http://www.museekster.com/disclaimer.htm) on it, the first line of which reads: > [@](#): > > The author reserves the right \*\*not to be responsible for the \*\* topicality, **correctness** , completeness \*\*or quality of the information \*\* provided. (bolding mine) I think that’s as good a cite as anyone would want. The author is saying one thing on one hand, and denying responsibility for it on the other hand. The saying: “Would you buy a used car from this man?” certainly applies in this case. And I’m not saying this as a mod, so flame away. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/7 "2005-12-30T06:38:59Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > And I’m not saying this as a mod, so flame away. Heh, [that’s cake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-Wikipedia_disclaimers) 😉 If we’re sticking to disclaimers you’ll soon find yourself fresh out of references. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/8 "2005-12-30T06:44:49Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > I think it’s rather interesting that you’re quoting a site that has a [disclaimer](http://www.museekster.com/disclaimer.htm) on it, the first line of which reads: > > (bolding mine) > > I think that’s as good a cite as anyone would want. The author is saying one thing on one hand, and denying responsibility for it on the other hand. > > The saying: “Would you buy a used car from this man?” certainly applies in this case. > > And I’m not saying this as a mod, so flame away. Its called “cover your ass.” Every site has a disclaimer like that even the SDMB: > [@](#): > > Considering the real-time nature of this bulletin board and the volume of messages received, it is impossible for us to verify the information posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. Users should be particularly wary of medical, legal or other professional advice posted on the message board and recognize that it is no substitute for in-person consultation with a competent professional. Messages express the views of their authors, not necessarily the views of the operator of the SDMB, namely the Chicago Reader, Inc. (“the Reader”), or any entity associated with it. In fact, I am suprised Cecil doesn’t have a disclaimer of his own. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/9 "2005-12-30T07:08:38Z")
So you’re believing this site the same way you believe the Encyclopedia Britannica, the Associated Press, the New York Times, CNN, and even The Straight Dope? The site that your so-called legal opinion was on is a [ringtone](http://www.museekster.com/) site in Amsterdam. It has nothing to do with allofmp3. My best (admittedly bad) Dutch translation of the front page second paragraph says: “For all information about music downloading, P2P programs, and mp3s, we can help you on our new internet site.” ( **Coldfire** (or any Dutch Dopers), if you see this, please accept my apologies for any bad translation and correct as needed.) Consider the source. Music downloading. P2P programs. Closed thread. End of discussion. _On preview:_ **treis** , you’re absolutely right about our disclaimer. Do you believe everything you read here? 99.999% may be good advice, but there’s the off chance that some bad info filters in. We have to CYA. If you’re insinuating that legal advice given by an Amsterdam ringtone site is somehow superior or even comparable to the Straight Dope, then I know of some gentlemen in Nigeria that would like to give you 35% of $28.4 million for your help in getting the money out of the country. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/10 "2005-12-30T07:20:50Z")
Rico, Allofmp3 has nothing to do with P2P. If downloading music is means to close a thread, then all threads discussing iTunes need to go as well. The source in question merely happens to be one that another poster posted (RTFT, it wasn’t my source). The topic has been discussed widely on the Internet, I won’t belabor the point by linking you to Google. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/11 "2005-12-30T07:40:11Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > _On preview:_ **treis** , you’re absolutely right about our disclaimer. Do you believe everything you read here? 99.999% may be good advice, but there’s the off chance that some bad info filters in. We have to CYA. If you’re insinuating that legal advice given by an Amsterdam ringtone site is somehow superior or even comparable to the Straight Dope, then I know of some gentlemen in Nigeria that would like to give you 35% of $28.4 million for your help in getting the money out of the country. What does every lawyer say in any thread that can be construed as legal advice? “I am not your attorney and this is not legal advice.” A disclaimer is simple legal CYA and should not be construed to diminish the accuracy of the site. As far as that site being a ringtone DL site (as though that somehow makes it less accurate) it also appears to review mp3 d/l sites. [http://www.museekster.com/disclaimer.htm](http://www.museekster.com/disclaimer.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/12 "2005-12-30T08:47:27Z")
Closing that thread kind of struck me the wrong way too. All the OP wanted to know was whether the site was legal, a legitimate question since nobody in _this_ thread seems to know for sure either. Their site is down for maintenance right now, but I’ve heard a bit about it. It’s a website (like iTunes), you pay money to them (like iTunes), and you get to download a song (like iTunes), the iTunes domain being registered by Apple in Cupertino, CA, USA. It’s perfectly _possible_ that this service is outside the law in the US, but possible it isn’t either. As someone who got ‘warned’ by a mod for posting about music file sharing when I was _actually_ posting information about using [packet shaping](http://svana.org/kleptog/Packet-Shaping-HOWTO.html) to _prevent_ it, I think it’s reasonable to think the mods should cool it with the quick-draw. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/13 "2005-12-30T10:28:03Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > The site that your so-called legal opinion was on is a [ringtone](http://www.museekster.com/) site in Amsterdam. It has nothing to do with allofmp3. My best (admittedly bad) Dutch translation of the front page second paragraph says: > > “For all information about music downloading, P2P programs, and mp3s, we can help you on our new internet site.” ( **Coldfire** (or any Dutch Dopers), if you see this, please accept my apologies for any bad translation and correct as needed.) Your translation is spot-on, FWIW. I have no opinion on the legality of the site in question, but should point out that the differences in copyright laws between the US and the Netherlands are minimal, from this IANAL perspective. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/14 "2005-12-30T10:51:31Z")
> **[RIAA's next big target: Russia](https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2005/12/5849-2/)** > > The RIAA is trumpeting a Senate resolution that calls on Russia to respect US … > [@](#): > > However, certain regions remain outside the RIAA’s and IFPI’s sphere of influence. One of those is Russia. A number of music download services operate out of that country, including the well-known [allofmp3.com](http://allofmp3.com). None of them have the blessing of the IFPI or any of the labels to offer music for sale, yet they have been given the green light to stay in business by Russian law enforcement. A loophole in Russian copyright law allows [Allofmp3.com](http://Allofmp3.com) and other sites to continue operations because they don’t deal with physical media, much to the chagrin of the labels. So the first half of an answer to the original GQ thread is “Yes, the operators of [allofmp3.com](http://allofmp3.com) are operating within the law as it applies to them”. **Samclem** smacked the thread down before the valid question of whether it’s legal to download from that site to America could be answered. And I don’t think there _is_ an answer, not until it’s tested in court. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/15 "2005-12-30T12:40:21Z")
Holy Crap! The moderators err on the side of caution and shut down most threads that might be illegal, especially in the realm of copyright violations! Why I’ve never heard of anything so preposterous. This could be a first for the Dope. And those poor people will be at a loss to find any other place on the internet to discuss these matters. A travesty I tell you, and my heart weeps. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/16 "2005-12-30T14:52:15Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Your cite is my bitch! All your bitch are belong to us. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/17 "2005-12-30T14:56:25Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Holy Crap! The moderators err on the side of caution and shut down most threads that might be illegal, especially in the realm of copyright violations! Why I’ve never heard of anything so preposterous. This could be a first for the Dope. And those poor people will be at a loss to find any other place on the internet to discuss these matters. A travesty I tell you, and my heart weeps. Exactly. I’ve seen rumors that Russian law on age of consent permits children to perform sexually at an age under 18 (16 was cited once), and that there are therefore Russian porn sites which permit performances by 16- and 17-year-olds. And viewing such sites from the U.S. is grounds for an arrest on obtaining and possessing child pornography. I think the parallel is pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/18 "2005-12-30T15:05:02Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > I am referring to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=351702) where a poster asks if an online service ([allofmp3.com](http://allofmp3.com)) is legal. Samclem steps up with his gavel in hand and declares that the service is illegal, without a cite, clearly having not [RTFA](http://www.museekster.com/allofmp3faq.htm#Is%20using%20Allofmp3%20legal?):It’s not like they didn’t cite US code or anything, or that three established posters had not fairly directly iterated the point that the service _is_ legal (and what better than for the sake that “where our host is” people are innocent until proven guilty…fucking right!). No, I actually read all of the cites/sites that were offered in that thread. I especially liked this response from the Russian– > [@](#): > > can confirm the legality of [allofmp3.com](http://allofmp3.com) You can legally buy/download mp3-songs from this site if it does not breaks the law the national legislation of the country in which you will be during that moment Sorry for my english. > Yours faithfully, the assistant to the lawyer of the Russian society on multimedia and to digital networks (ROMS) [www.roms.ru](http://www.roms.ru). > > Bahanets Roman Igorevich My reading of everything indicates to me that you can’t download from another country at ten cents/song just because it’s legal in that country. And maybe it’s only my opinion, but give me a legal cite, from a US court, that it’s legal to download copyrighted songs, even for your personal use, from a source which is not abiding by the law as it’s enforced in the US. > [@alterego](#): > > I think it’s fine that Samclem has a differing opinion, and I am certainly not asking that anyone take the referenced website as an authority. I simply encourage him to start a thread in Great Debates, or better yet, the pit, where cites are not required and you can declare your not-well-founded opinion as if it were fact. The only way you can do such a thing in GQ is if you are abusing your moderator powers. I think my opinion is well-founded. I think that the opinions expressed in that thread were less so. Maybe someone will come along here and offer a legal opinion as to why I was wrong. But until then, I was doing what the Chicago reader “hired” me to do, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/19 "2005-12-30T15:07:59Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Exactly. I’ve seen rumors that Russian law on age of consent permits children to perform sexually at an age under 18 (16 was cited once), and that there are therefore Russian porn sites which permit performances by 16- and 17-year-olds. > > And viewing such sites from the U.S. is grounds for an arrest on obtaining and possessing child pornography. > > I think the parallel is pretty obvious. I don’t think the parallel is obvious at all. > [@samclem](#): > > And maybe it’s only my opinion, but give me a legal cite, from a US court, that it’s legal to download copyrighted songs, even for your personal use, from a source which is not abiding by the law as it’s enforced in the US. You mean, provide the information which was asked for by the GQ thread in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693/20 "2005-12-30T15:09:41Z")
Does anyone posting in this thread actually believe that this site is legal? You can’t possibly be that gullible. Anyway, here’s your cite. United States Copyright Act of 1976, Sec. 106 (17 U.S.C. Sec. 106) states, in relevant part: > [@U.S. Code](#): > > Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following: > (1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;… > (3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public > by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;… and > (6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly > by means of a digital audio transmission. (Emphasis added) Now, if those that think allofmp3\*\*.com is legal want to argue the point, by all means make your case. But obviously quoting a statement that seems so clearly bullshit by a stie owner isn’t going to carry the weight you need. The Copyright Act is available in pdf [here](http://www.copyright.gov/title17/circ92.pdf) and in html [here](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sup_01_17_10_1.htm). –Cliffy [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-theyre-doing-is-illegal-in-the-us-and-does-an-overzealous-mod-have-a-cite/337693.md?page=2)