# What things are sacred in Baseball and should never be changed? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 30, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514 "2003-05-30T13:40:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/61 "2003-06-02T19:51:06Z")
On the other hand, a batter touched by a pitch gets 1st base, even if it just grazes his uniform. So batters want baggy uni’s; runners want skin-tight. I’m sure they’d change at first base if they could. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/62 "2003-06-02T20:25:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsc1953 \* > \*\*_Troy McClure_ For what it’s worth, hills and flagpoles in the outfield are (perhaps misguided) attempts at countering the cookie-cutter stadium by adding “quirks” that are throwbacks to actual features of bygone parks. Crosley Field in Cincinnati had a slope in the outfield; both Crosley and Tiger stadium had flagpoles in play. \*\* One good sign of things to come: [the new Fenway](http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/index.htm) is expected to have the same field dimensions as the current one. FWIW, the oddest stadium that ever existed had a cliff running from left field to right-center. The University of Texas Longhorns played there, as did a Negro League team. According to legend, Lou Gehrig hit the world’s longest home run there but because it was an exhibition game against the Longhorns, the record is unofficial. I can’t find a picture of this stadium online but if you can find the book [Green Cathedrals](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201567776/qid=1054585653/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-8865872-7568057?v=glance&s=books), it’ll be listed under Austin, Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/63 "2003-06-02T21:05:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\*Shoeless Joe Jackson and others on the 1918 (?) White Sox team were accused of throwing games in the World Series. To find out more about him, read the book or see the movie _Field of Dreams_. The old saying, “Say it ain’t so, Joe” was a reference to him. If you love baseball, you need to see that movie, _Pride of the Yankees_ and _Bull Durham_ for starters. > > \*\* Actually, Field of Dreams won’t really teach you a damn thing about Joe Jackson. Unlike most of the White Sox that year, Jackson didn’t throw any games. The other players that were banned, Eddie Cicotte being the most famous I guess, admitted to it. Jackson, though, not only denied throwing games, [he told Charlie Comiskey about the fix.](http://www.chicagohs.org/history/blacksox/joe2.html) You can even see the transcript of Jackson in court. Basically, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, having recently become commissioner of baseball, took a super-hardass stance to the Black Sox, and banned’em all regardless of evidence. Jackson batted .375 with no errors in that World Series which he was banned for “throwing,” by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/64 "2003-06-03T00:23:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jimmy Chitwood \* > **Actually, Field of Dreams won’t really teach you a damn thing about Joe Jackson.** Nope. The movie you want is _Eight Men Out_, directed by John Sayles, starring John Cusack, Charlie Sheen, David Strathairn, and others you’ll recognize. D.B. Sweeney plays Joe Jackson. Count me with those who want to jettison the DH (even though my team, the Mariners, has the best ever), who think interleague play during the season is a travesty, and who want Bud Selig to be clubbed like a seal and dropped off a barge. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/65 "2003-06-03T01:33:36Z")
Just for the record, I think _Field of Dreams_ was a good movie, but it was pretty loose with the historical accuracy. Maybe somebody could help me out with this: wasn’t Shoeless Joe a righty batter in the movie? IRL, he threw right, batted left. I could swear he was right handed in the movie, but I don’t have a copy to verify it. Also, I guess I’m in the minority here, but I don’t see the problem with the DH. At this point, what good does it do anybody to have the pitcher bat? Even the best hitting pitchers are only as good a hitter as your average middle infielder, so what’s wrong with everybody just conceding that point and putting a guy in there who gets paid to hit? I know that it’s weird that DH’s don’t play the field, but if that was the whole problem, they could just have everybody go to an 8-man lineup (not that I think that would be a good idea.) As it stands now, what’s the point of having, say, Barry Zito bat in the World Series? He’s going to get out, and it’ll be a great victory for him if he even moves the runners over. I guess to me, pitchers and batters are playing a different game anyway, so it’s not that fundamentally wrong to just scrap the idea of pitchers hitting. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/66 "2003-06-03T03:27:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jimmy Chitwood \* > \*\*Actually, Field of Dreams won’t really teach you a damn thing about Joe Jackson. Unlike most of the White Sox that year, Jackson didn’t throw any games. The other players that were banned, Eddie Cicotte being the most famous I guess, admitted to it. Jackson, though, not only denied throwing games, [he told Charlie Comiskey about the fix.](http://www.chicagohs.org/history/blacksox/joe2.html) You can even see the transcript of Jackson in court. \*\* Oh please. Not this again. Jackson did NOT tell Comiskey about the fix. There is no evidence whatsoever he did anything of the sort. the Web site you linked to is full of it; Jackson never said in his testimony that he went to Comiskey. **He only started telling that story years later.** What we do know is that he admitted in court that he conspired to throw the World Series. He admitted in court that he accepted money to thrw the World Series, and even went so far as to bitch out Chick Gandil for not giving him more money. He never told anyone about it, except apparently his wife, until long afterwards. Whether or not he ended up shanking the games is immaterial; he was part of the plot, he took money as part of the plot, and he didn’t tell anyone about it until he got in trouble for it the next year. Simply participating in the conspiracy was ALWAYS cause for lifetime banishment - ballplayers were banned for the same thing **before Kenesaw Landis had anything to do with baseball.** The Black Sox aren’t the only, or even the majority, of ballplayers banned for conspiring to throw games; look it up. And it SHOULD be a lifetime banishment offense. He got exactly what he should have gotten. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/67 "2003-06-03T04:32:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jimmy Chitwood \* > **Also, I guess I’m in the minority here, but I don’t see the problem with the DH. At this point, what good does it do anybody to have the pitcher bat?** Two things for me: A) That’s how it is in the National League, which is who I grew up with. It’s also the senior circuit, and for baseball, I say go with tradition. B) One thing that pisses me off about football is that there is an offensive team, and then a seperate defensive team (and then a seperate special teams unit). You could be the most well-known player in the NFL, but you’re only good at half the sport\*. Nuh-uh. Playing offense _and_ defense should not be noteworthy. If you play baseball, play baseball. Don’t play _some_ some baseball and let someone else do what you suck at. That’s a cop-out. \*-Excluding, of course the rare Deon Sanders type. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/68 "2003-06-03T04:34:07Z")
You’ve got all the facts, apparently. Tell me about when Kenesaw Mountain Landis banned Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker for their gambling episodes. Joe Jackson was a naive, uneducated country boy who got tricked by a bunch of sleazeballs, and Landis was an egomaniac who cared about his reputation and keeping his buddies happy. A court found Jackson not guilty; what higher authority do you want me to reference? At the risk of you telling me what I do reference is a big lie again, [here you go.](http://www.cincypost.com/2003/02/25/rose02-25-2003.html) > [@](#): > > A spokesman for the commissioner said recently that no decision on Jackson is pending, nor is there a timetable for deliberation. He did concede that Selig requested and received a finding from Jerome Holtzman, a long-time baseball writer and columnist for the Chicago Sun-Times and Chicago Tribune whom the commissioner had appointed as baseball historian, but that was no solace to Nola. He said Holtzman was biased against Jackson. “It was a straight report,” Holtzman countered. “I tried to be as fair as I could.” The veteran journalist agreed that new evidence had indeed surfaced in the 1980s. “About 20 years ago,” Holtzman said, "the copy of confession became public. It was on display at the Chicago Historical Society. And about 15 years ago, I got the transcript of a later trial in Milwaukee when three of the players, including Jackson, sued for back pay. A lot came out in that second trial. “It was very slimy business. The lawyers for the players were really (owner Charlie) Comiskey’s lawyers. The players didn’t know better. They confessed to the lawyers. Then the confessions were stolen before the first trial and used to beat (the players) on the second trial.” What was known is that Jackson received $5,000 ($1,000 less than his annual salary) after the fourth game, dumped in his hotel room by pitcher Claude “Lefty” Williams. “When the series was over,” Holtzman said, "Joe Jackson went to the ballpark to give the money to Comiskey. There was a cage with a wooden window in his office, and Harry Grabiner, who was Comiskey’s secretary and aide de camp, opened the window and saw Jackson. He said, ‘We know why you’re here. Go home.’ " A reporter who Bud Selig chose to give a report on the matter, and has been accused of anti-Jackson bias, said Jackson DID go to Comiskey. Were you a baseball executive in the early 20’s, and you can tell me otherwise? I repeat, it strikes me that Joe Jackson was taken advantage of. You’re welcome to say that that’s not the way it was. The guy couldn’t even read, for crap’s sake. His entire team, basically, got involved with a gambler, and were going to throw the Series. He didn’t want to, so he played his best. They gave him money for it, and he got banned from baseball. Nobody disagrees with this: Jackson didn’t throw the '19 Series. Maybe he told somebody he would, maybe he got conned into signing something, maybe not. He didn’t do it. Then Landis banned him. In my opinion, that wasn’t right. Feel free to talk down to me again at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/69 "2003-06-03T04:37:41Z")
That was all in response to RickJay. Troy McClure SF: I agree, don’t get me wrong. The thing is, if you drop the DH at this point, there’s a bunch of AL pitchers who haven’t swung a bat in years. Had the DH rule never been established, I agree that would’ve been purer baseball. But now, it seems like abolishing the DH would just lead to seven to ten more crappy at-bats a game. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/70 "2003-06-03T07:07:17Z")
Enigmatic players like **“Shoeless” Joe Jackson**. 😉 Grass fields. Scoring the game from your seat. Yelling at the umpire. Bleacher seats. Day games (and skipping school to attend). 7th inning strech (but its time for Take Me Out To The Ballgame again). ---
**Author:** ![PatrickM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7feea3/32.png) [@PatrickM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickM)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/71 "2003-06-03T15:49:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jimmy Chitwood \* > \*\*Just for the record, I think _Field of Dreams_ was a good movie, but it was pretty loose with the historical accuracy. Maybe somebody could help me out with this: wasn’t Shoeless Joe a righty batter in the movie? IRL, he threw right, batted left. I could swear he was right handed in the movie, but I don’t have a copy to verify it. > > \ > \*\* Jimmy, you’re right about Shoeless Joe batting lefting in real life and righty in the movie. Taking the liberty of the inexact quote from memory, I saw a tv program about baseball movies that discussed this, and one of the executives from “Field of Dreams” said, “We got complaints about the fact that we had Shoeless Joe batting from the wrong side and about the fact that the actor didn’t speak with a southern accent like the real Shoeless Joe had. We didn’t get any complaints at all about the fact that we had long dead ball players materializing out of an Iowa cornfield.” Suspension of belief only goes so far, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![baseball\_dude12000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@baseball\_dude12000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baseball_dude12000)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/72 "2003-06-03T15:56:08Z")
there should be a salary cap ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/73 "2003-06-03T16:23:21Z")
**baseball\_dude12000** must be Bud Selig. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/74 "2003-06-03T16:24:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jimmy Chitwood \* > **You’ve got all the facts, apparently. Tell me about when Kenesaw Mountain Landis banned Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker for their gambling episodes.** > [@](#): > > [http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/jul18.html](http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/jul18.html) > [Ty Cobb] was allowed to resign in 1926 in lieu of being banned for alleged gambling violations. However, Cobb was subsequently exonerated and reinstated by baseball’s first commissioner, Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis. > [@](#): > > [http://thebaseballpage.com/forums/abe/posts/2121.html](http://thebaseballpage.com/forums/abe/posts/2121.html) > The accusation that he attempted to fix a Major League game was lodged against him by Hubert “Dutch” Leonard (not Ruether) in late 1926. The charge involved a game on September 24, 1919. Leonard claimed that he met with Cobb, Speaker, and Smokey Joe Wood under the grandstands at Navin Field to arrange it so the Tigers would win and finish in third place, thus assuring them a World Series share. > > Commissioner Landis did not suppress anything. After studying the matter, he announced that Cobb and Speaker were being permitted to resign. Smokey Joe Wood had already retired after the 1922 season. Landis later interviewed Cobb, Speaker, and Wood at length. Their accuser did not attend the meeting and testify. Cobb and Speaker denied they conspired to fix a game. Judge Landis essentially dismissed the charges and allowed both to continue playing in the Majors. > > Commissioner Landis did not bow to any pressure from the owners because there was none. In fact, it was the AL owners who voted to refer the matter to Landis. Additionally, there was no doubt about Leonard’s hatred of Cobb and Speaker. He told famous writer Damon Runyon, “I’ll have my revenge.” There were at least a couple of incidents that contributed to this hatred. So, what do you have? You have a man who admittedly hated Cobb and Speaker accusing them of wrongdoing nearly 7 years after the fact. He did present two letters written to him by Cobb and Speaker as evidence but there is nothing in them that proves any accusation to be true. > [@](#): > > **A court found Jackson not guilty** A court found _all eight_ not guilty. Why are you not defending the other seven while you’re at it? > [@](#): > > [http://www.mc.cc.md.us/Departments/hpolscrv/blacksox.htm](http://www.mc.cc.md.us/Departments/hpolscrv/blacksox.htm) > The first commissioner of baseball, Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis, suspended each of the players, and initially promised them reinstatement if they were found not guilty. He still banned them all for life in spite of the fact that all were cleared of criminal charges. > > “Regardless of the verdict of the juries,” he said, “no player that throws a ball game . . . will ever again play professional baseball.” ---
**Author:** ![ace22](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f05b48/32.png) [@ace22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ace22)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/75 "2003-06-03T17:33:42Z")
1. If you think player salaries have exploded, it’s nothing compared to overall revenues. And why blame the players, when it is the owners who cut them that check? They don’t **have** to pay them that much. 2. Four playoff series is too much? Try having eight, like hockey. I like the current playoff scheme, after initial doubts. 3. How are people tired of Yankee-Braves world series? There have been two! Two! What is it with people and the Braves, I think it’s appalling how many people think that they suck because they only won the one world series. Winning every single division title since 1991 doesn’t count? 4. Let’s not get too crazy with the revenue sharing. Don’t get me wrong, I hate the Yankees with an all-encompassing passion. But I think that it is at least admirable that Mr. Evil (George S) puts his revenue back into his team. If only others would do it too. 5. The DH rule sucks. It eliminates accountability on the part of the pitcher, so when he drills a batter it is one of his teammates that receives the retaliation, not him. There, that’s three things that should remain the same, one that should have, and one that is a complete hijack. Mwah. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/76 "2003-06-03T19:17:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jimmy Chitwood \* > \*\*You’ve got all the facts, apparently. Tell me about when Kenesaw Mountain Landis banned Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker for their gambling episodes. \*\* If you’ll just give me a cite for when those men said under oath that they had agreed to throw a baseball game for money, I will gladly support their ejection from the Hall of Fame. > [@](#): > > Joe Jackson was a naive, uneducated country boy who got tricked by a bunch of sleazeballs, Jackson might have been a stupid man, but he was was a grown man, was competent enough to get married and drive a car and function normally, and he was smart enough to know what he was getting into. The rules don’t just apply to people with IQs above 101. > [@](#): > > A reporter who Bud Selig chose to give a report on the matter, and has been accused of anti-Jackson bias, said Jackson DID go to Comiskey. Show me some actual evidence it happened. Strange that Jackson forgot all about it during his testimony. It is a fact beyond ANY reasonable dispute that Jackson was a party to the conspiracy to throw the 1919 World Series. You cannot sanely deny this. Jackson openly admitted it and other witnesses corroborated his testimony. There is NO substantive evidence he went to Comiskey about it. The story as repeated in your linked article is, as I have already stated, something Jackson came up with years after the fact. > [@](#): > > I repeat, it strikes me that Joe Jackson was taken advantage of. I’m sure he was taken advantage of. So what? Does that change the fact that he agreed to throw the World Series? > [@](#): > > His entire team, basically, got involved with a gambler, and were going to throw the Series. “Entire team”??? Eight men is not an entire team; the 1919 White Sox had what, 22 players on the World Series roster? ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/77 "2003-06-03T22:00:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Troy McClure SF \* > \*\* If you play baseball, play baseball. Don’t play _some_ some baseball and let someone else do what you suck at. That’s a cop-out. \*\* I agree. What’s with these prima-donnas like Bonds and Alex Rodriguez refusing to pitch. Not real ballplayers if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/78 "2003-06-03T22:27:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ace22 \* > **5) The DH rule sucks. It eliminates accountability on the part of the pitcher, so when he drills a batter it is one of his teammates that receives the retaliation, not him.** Right. Because Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale never hit a batter. Neither did Pedro Martinez while on the Expos. As for Shoeless Joe: Here is a summary of [Rob Neyer’s](http://espn.go.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1232950.html) column. 1. “A jury acquitted him of all charges.” Bogus because of some factors, namely, that there was no law against throwing ball games and the judge specifically informed the jurors that throwing games was not, in and of itself, a crime. Second, the written confessions were stolen out of the District Attorney’s office right before the trial. Third, Jackson admitted under oath that he agreed to throw the Series. 2. “He hit .375.” There were eight games in the 1919 World Series, and the plan of the conspirators was to win three and lose five. Jackson hit .545 in the three games they were trying to win. In the first four games the conspirators wanted to lose, Jackson hit .250 with 0 RBI. In the fifth game, he was hitless until the Reds were up 5-0 then he hit a solo homer and then hit a 2-run double when the Reds were safely up by 9. Sounds on the up and up to me. Plus, Neyer says that the fielding was suspect, too. Three of Cinci’s nine triples were hit left field where Jackson was. And Dickie Kerr, a Sox pitcher who won his two starts said, “Our outfielders fielded base hits slow, allowing the Reds to take extra bases. And, there were times when the fielders played the Reds just opposite of what they were supposed to do. In that way they left gaps for the ball to fall safely.” In short, there are other ways to rig fielding without committing an error. Shoeless Joe either helped to rig that series, or he knew about what was going on and did nothing. Either way he deserves to be banned. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/79 "2003-06-04T02:22:35Z")
back to OP: Friendly fans who are like family. 🆒 HINT HINT. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514/80 "2003-06-04T02:32:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\* > Shoeless Joe either helped to rig that series, or he knew about what was going on and did nothing. Either way he deserves to be banned. \*\* I think I should make an important clarification here, since based on all the arguments, and the fact that I’m the only one who hasn’t been strictly anti-Jackson, it seems like you’re arguing with me that Jackson wasn’t innocent. I’m not in a position to say Joe Jackson shouldn’t be banned from baseball. All I disagree with is the notion that he “threw the Series.” He DID say in court that he knew about the fix, but not that he agreed to participate in it. Landis, although I really dislike the man, was definitely within his rights to ban him. The only reason I said anything was that **Zoe** said > [@](#): > > Shoeless Joe Jackson and others on the 1918 (?) White Sox team were accused of throwing games in the World Series. That’s all, I just wanted to note that there were some extenuating circumstances, and some disagreement as to what did or didn’t happen. There’s been numerous books written about it, and MLB has investigated a couple times, so it’s obviously not as cut-and-dry as some people think. The point is, I just don’t know. Of course, I didn’t say that right off, because I’m too much of a dick to give cool, unbiased assessments. **RickJay,** in particular- I got a little too serious about this crap, my apologies. I’m not trying to deny any facts, and I’m certainly not nominating Jackson for sainthood. It’s just my opinion that hearing about the fix and not doing anything, which is what I believe to be the extent of his involvement, might not be enough to keep the guy out of the Hall. > [@](#): > > “Entire team”??? Eight men is not an entire team; the 1919 White Sox had what, 22 players on the World Series roster? I don’t know if you’re being serious here or you just wanted to break my balls, but only 12 Sox, including pitchers, played in more than 2 games in that series. 8 of them were banned. Hence the word “basically.” Maybe I should have said “the majority of the players who were on the field for significant amounts of time during the World Series” instead of “basically the whole team.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-things-are-sacred-in-baseball-and-should-never-be-changed/178514.md?page=5)