Preaching to the choir here. 100% agree.
This is meaningless without context.
*What time did she go to bed? I.e. how many hours of sleep. If more than 10 hours or so, you have a valid complaint. If not, you are the problem.
*is there any reason for her to get out of bed, other than to satisfy your sensibilities? Does she need to go to school, work, are there assigned chores that are undone etc? it there are, she is the problem.
If not, you are the problem.
well 7:45 PM…piano not practised and she’s in bed keeping warm with computer.
told you all had reamed me over being mean…but that she was not keeping up her end of bargain.
so a got a sullen piano practise.
and by the way…no medication and we have not curtains.
If you want the social media cut off after a certain point then take away her phone. Or take her computer out of her room. You’re the parent, you can impose rules.
I am inherently a night owl. Left to myself I go to bed around 2 am or so and sleep until 10 or 11 am. On the other hand, my current job often demands I WAKE UP at 2 am to get to work on time, which I do. Maintaining that schedule requires enormous self-discipline and is never really comfortable for me. It is contributing to sleep disturbances which over the past few years has sometimes required medication.
The point being that what she is doing now MIGHT, in fact, be her normal.
Now, being the parent you can force her to keep a “morning lark” schedule but that doesn’t mean she’s going to “learn” to like something that is at odds with her natural rhythms. If it short changes her sleep then in fact your efforts could be unhealthy for her. But I’m not there so I can’t tell what is your personal bias and what is her being a rebellious teenager.
Because yes, some of this could be teen rebellion. Which is annoying but normal for teens, and if sleeping all day is the way she is rebelling, well, things could be a lot worse.
Geez, this reminds me of arguments my husband used to have with his mother.
He was another one of the night owls.
Given a choice, he’d always choose the night shift. When he worked freelance from home he would start work around 8 pm work until 4 or 5 am. He’d go to bed around 7 am. He’d sleep until 3 pm. That was his normal. He was very productive, gaining two patents and several copyrighted works over his lifetime. When he worked as a performer being a night owl was an asset.
Yet his mother considered him lazy because she’d call at 10 am and couldn’t figure out why he was always asleep. He was asleep because he didn’t get to bed until 7 am because he was working until 5 am.
When a job required that he get up early he did so - at one point he was getting up at 3 am to go to a job to keep a roof over both our heads.
My point being that his inclination to stay up until dawn was NOT a sign of laziness or debauchery, it was what felt best. But he could change his schedule when needed, just as when a morning lark is stuck working 2nd shift or even overnights.
So… when school is in session and life is normal does she properly get up, get ready, and get to school on time? If the answer is yes then stop worrying.
Right now nothing is normal. She might be having trouble getting to sleep - I sure as hell do these days. If that is the case then help her without berating her. Put a curfew on social media/screen time. If she wants to sit up after that time she can read a treebook or knit or whatever. Cut back on caffeine if that’s part of the issue. If the problem is that she’s depressed or anxious because of what’s going on…well, it’s a strain on all of us. If her staying up and sleeping in late is a means of coping it’s not the worst means of doing so.
Tell her that if she’s going to live in a different time zone as the rest of the house inform her that the ONLY concession to that will be allowing her to keep her door closed - the rest of the household is under no obligation to tip-toe around. Back in my teen years that would not be an obstacle to my sleeping - heck, I was known for falling asleep during bagpipe band practices (damn, I miss being able to sleep like that!). If she needs the sleep she’ll sleep. If she’s unhappy - well, the rest of the household is not required to accommodate her living out of synch.
Assuming you’re as cooped up as the rest of the planet right now, is this really the hill you want to have a battle on?
Do her chores have to be done early, or is that YOUR habit? Are there things to do at night that she can be given? If she’s not cooking/cleaning up for breakfast can she be assigned to clean up after dinner? You can impose the condition that if she wants her own private time zone then she is required to contribute an adult portion of household maintenance.
Yeah, make that the deal - choosing your own schedule is an adult thing. If she wants that privilege then she must also assume adult responsibility - dinner clean up, or doing the laundry for everyone, or something that significantly contributes to the household that relieves you of labor in return for her making that choice. You are correct - being a night owl is no excuse for laziness or evasion of responsibility, so if she wants that time zone she has to demonstrate she is NOT those things. If she’s contributing to the household, getting her homework done, and otherwise demonstrating energy and responsibility despite living in a different time zone would that alleviate your worry?
If you’ve been a morning lark all your life and was raised that rising early was a virtue I can understand your struggle with that. However, there are a LOT of us living the night shift who are productive, wholesome adults. It’s not incompatible with being a productive and even ambitious citizen, even if it’s not your personal normal.
No, it’s “let her sleep IF her responsibilities are being fulfilled”. You seem to be completely missing the second half of that.
How do you know she’s sleeping 11 or more hours?
Just because she’s in her bedroom, or in her bed, doesn’t mean she’s asleep.
The second part contradicts the first - unless you think forcing someone to be sleep deprived is healthy or desirable.
So, let’s say… she stays up until 4 am and gets up at 7 am as you want her to do, to help out. Then mid-afternoon, exhausted, she falls asleep - are you going to come back complaining she’s napping every afternoon?
What you very clearly want is for her to conform to your schedule and you keep coming up with excuses as to why what you want is preferable to all other possibilities.
On what basis?
If a person doesn’t fall asleep until 4 or 5 am yes, in fact sleeping til noon IS healthy.
Except you’ve already said you don’t know how much she actually is or isn’t sleeping, and if a person is regularly up until 4 am and sleeping until noon that is in fact a regular sleep pattern. It’s just not your pattern.
No one is saying “just accept this”. We are giving you a list of things to look for, conditions to impose, and questions to ask. What you are NOT getting is automatic validation that you are 100% correct in all ways.
First, you can’t force someone to be happy. You can force your daughter to get up at an arbitrary time, you can NOT force her to be happy about it.
Second - you have just insulted absolutely everyone who busts their ass on the night shift to keep the world working while you sleep. Thanks for the slam. :rolleyes:
THEN TAKE AWAY HER PHONE!
Holy crap - you’re the adult here. One more time: it is entirely valid to impose a rule of "no on-line/phone time past X time at night). At which point she has to surrender her phone to you or the other parent who retains custody until X condition (time, completed chore, whatever) ensues.
If the phone is the problem then deal with it.
If she then starts sleeping on a schedule more compatible with your own then great. If she is STILL lying awake until 3 am then it’s something else.
Would you let her wander around a mall at 2 am? Of course not. Then don’t let her “wander around” on the phone or on line at 2 am.
A few years back I read an article about an anthropologist who’d spent several months living with one of the last hunter-gatherer tribes on New Guinea. He noticed, just like ‘civilized’ people, the teens went to sleep late and got up late while the oldsters slept early and got up early with little kids and young adults somewhere in between.
As a consequence the span where no one was awake was less than two hours. He hypothesized it was a holdover from the bad old days where a leopard might sneak up on them or something while everyone was asleep.
Then why are you asking for opinions, if you have no intention of considering those that don’t agree with yours?
Sleeping until 11:15 am?!? What is this, amateur hour?
You sound like a demanding parent who doesn’t recognize how high achieving your child is. Your behavior is probably ripe for rebellion.
…
When I was a teen, my mom liked to joke that I awoke at “the crack of noon”. I wasn’t exactly a night owl, I just liked to sleep. And even if I went to bed at 11 or 11:30, it felt good to wake up in the morning and then roll over for another hour or so.
I still like to sleep. But these days, at 42, I’m in bed by 10 and wake by 6:30 every day - on weekends I lounge around in bed for an hour or so, and maybe relish a weekend nap when I can find the time.
So, no, this is not some lifelong affliction. This is a teenager - a hard working, probably sleep deprived one - enjoying some much earned R&R.
(I mean, as others have said, if school started up and she wasn’t getting ready on time, or she was missing her part time job because she overslept, then it’s a problem. Not fulfilling some arbitrary to-do list for the sake of appearing busy - sadly, an affliction at many adult jobs - is hardly worth a concern).
During the teen years the circadian rhythm significantly changes. It moves so that staying up later and getting up later is what happens. This change can be as much as two hours.
If she is having a problem going to sleep at night or can not get enough sleep, circadian rhythms can be adjusted. Melatonin is a mild hypnotic but it usually does a great job at changing circadian patterns. The most effective dose is about one third to one tenth the usual dose so it would be a good idea to break the tablets up for maximum effectiveness.
And some of us are night owls. From what I gather, it’s just one of those things that’s ingrained, and you really can’t change it.
That was like my mother, who at first FORBID me to listen to music while I did my homework, or studied. I found it helped me concentrate much better, because I could tune everything else out, but she was convinced it would distract me. It took me forever to persuade her otherwise.
Please tell me your 16 year old doesn’t have a BED TIME?
I’ve wondered for some time whether this might not be the explanation for different people having different sleep patterns. During most of human evolution it must have been an advantage to always have somebody awake – whether to watch out for tigers or just to keep the fire going.
? boomer here - the only meal that we all ate together was the evening meal - neither my brother nor I went to the same school, so we rarely were around at the same time other than for dinner … I don’t think our family suffered particularly much.
SO, you have peeping toms?
Speaking as someone who worked nights doing security and keeping the world [or those who were secured by us] safe, gee, thanks for being dismissed for my ‘bohemian’ schedule. I am in agreement wth Broomstick - there are tons of jobs that require a second or third shift life … my husband just left a job working a funky half second half third shift making crucial parts for the defense industry … after spending 20 years in the military where one of the not optional scheduals was called port and starboard - 12 hour shifts, day in and day out sometimes for months at a time. WHen deployed on his boat, they had an 18 hour day - 6 hours on watch, 6 hours off watch, 6 hours ‘personal time’ [eat, sleep, whatever] so the ‘day’ and ‘night’ sort of precessed around the clock.
I’m confused about whether or not you have curtains in your house.
Jesus Christ, dude. You’re just not getting this. So here it is, from the top:
A 15-year old sleeping 11 hours is normal and healthy.
A 15-year old sleeping until 11 am is normal and healthy.
If that bothers you, that’s your problem, not hers.
My argument is
-
Sleeping till noon everyday for a fit and healthy person is unhealthy
You are wrong. -
Not having any sort of schedule or goal and just “slothing” through the day is bad for your mental health
You are wrong. -
Having curtains closed and people in bed till noon makes the house feel like a hospice - which is bad for the rest of the family.
Not her problem. -
What is a “reasonable” time to expect a teen (15) to be out of bed?
11:30 am. -
Is there any reliable study that I can cite to prove the effects of laziness and oversleeping?
No. But there are plenty saying sleeping until noon is healthy, normal, and expected. Do you care or do you just want to remain ignorant, cursing the tide? Teens go to bed no earlier than 11 pm, and they need 10 hours of sleep, so the absolute earliest she should get up is 9. Any earlier would be unhealthy. That’s science. Deal with it.
There’s an excellent book from 2017 called Why We Sleep. It’s geared to the general public so it’s an easy read.
But it’s also a scary read. F*ck with a person’s sleep schedule, and there will be serious repercussions. It also mentions the studies that indicate that teenagers sleeping a couple of hours later and sleeping for 9 or 10 hours is completely normal. Sleep-deprived your teen, and you could be screwing them up for life.
As far as having her door closed, I think that’s just a teenager thing. I can’t ever remember wanting to leave my door open when I was growing up – I liked having my privacy. Same with my sister, and all of my friends. You just want to be alone, without anyone coming in and bothering you.
And with the exception of the cat, our family pretty much respected that concept.
So you please, knock before you come in. And by that, I don’t mean knock, and then just walk in. Knock and wait for her to say, “come in.”
I can’t ever remember my family eating breakfast or lunch together, except on special occassions. We always just had completely different schedules. Plus nobody really wants to talk in the morning, because we’re still trying to wake up. Surely you know the feeling?