# What time signatures are "Golden Brown" and "One Of These Things First"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [May 7, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232 "2024-05-07T18:37:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/1 "2024-05-07T18:37:39Z")
This is a question about two of my favorite songs, by very different artists, the Stranglers’ “Golden Brown” and Nick Drake’s “One Of These Things First”. First, I only wanted to ask for the time signature of “Golden Brown”, but then I remembered that “One Of These Things First” has a very similar, but not completely the same beat. They also both remind me of “Take Five”, but again they’re not 100% the same. OOTTF hasn’t got a wiki page, but this is what wiki says about GB: > [@](#): > > There is disagreement among observers as to which time signatures best represents parts of the song.[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Brown#cite_note-lafolie-6): 43 The main body of the song has a [triple metre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_metre) [waltz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waltz) rhythm, with beats grouped in threes, but the instrumental parts add an extra beat to create a phrase of thirteen beats.[[7]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Brown#cite_note-goldradiouk-7)[[8]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Brown#cite_note-allmusic-8) The thirteen beats appear in the sheet music as alternating bars of **6** > **8** and **7** > **8** ,[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Brown#cite_note-musicnotes-9) which has also been described as three bars of **3** > **4** followed by one bar of **4** > **4**.[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Brown#cite_note-nomercy-10): 183 [[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Brown#cite_note-songbysong-11): 217 Sheet music of “Golden Brown” on [musicnotes.com](http://musicnotes.com) is published in [B-flat minor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-flat_minor).[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Brown#cite_note-musicnotes-9) So it seems still controversial, but even my untrained ears can spot the difference between the signature in the sung verses and the instrumental parts. What do my musically educated friends here at the Dope say? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/z-GUjA67mdc/maxresdefault.jpg "The Stranglers - Golden Brown (Restored Music Video)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-GUjA67mdc) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/vDtsgVgAx6k/maxresdefault.jpg "One Of These Things First") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDtsgVgAx6k) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/2 "2024-05-07T18:57:43Z")
Golden Brown is 3/4 for three measures, then 4/4. I think that’s the best way to think about it. ETA: Saw the rest of your post. Most of GB is 3/4 (all the singing parts). The instrumental parts are 3/4 3/4 3/4 4/4 ETA2: The second song seems to be all in 3/4 ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/3 "2024-05-07T19:07:01Z")
I have a hard time to grasp that both songs are in 3/4. As mentioned before, I have no musical education, but I had dance lessons in my youth and also learned the waltz, but I have difficulties imaging dancing it to these songs. There are just more and shorter notes in the bars than the 3/4 waltz songs I know. ETA: I have no musical notation, but what I hear: “Golden Brown”: Doo-dap-da-da, doo-dap-da-da Typical waltz song in 3/4: Doo-dap-da, doo-dap-da Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2024, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/4 "2024-05-07T19:13:54Z")
Interesting. They both seem very waltz-y to me. What you’re describing in your ETA seems like a shuffle beat, which can be considered 6/8 time, related to 3/4 time, but those short notes just sound like a little extra flair to me and don’t take away from the 3/4 feel, in my opinion. There are many people on this board more versed in this stuff than I am. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/5 "2024-05-08T07:10:16Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Golden Brown is 3/4 for three measures, then 4/4 This. > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > “Golden Brown”: > > Doo-dap-da-da, doo-dap-da-da If I understand you correctly, you hear 4 notes, so you think 4 beats but in fact the last two notes are short and only add up to one beat, making it 3 in total : (Doo)-(dap)-(da-da) ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/6 "2024-05-08T14:48:00Z")
When I hear the triplet with the first and fourth beats emphasized, I think of that as 6/8. Do I have that wrong? I just read a couple of instances online of people claiming its 12/8, and that’s actually feeling more intuitive to me. i’m not touching the 13/8 part though. > **[The Strangest Waltz Ever: Asymmetrical Compound Meter in The Stranglers'...](http://www.rebelmusicteacher.com/blog/2016/6/14/asymmetrical-compound-meter-in-the-stranglers-golden-brown)** > > 12/8 time shifts to 13/8 time; who knew an extra eighth note could change so much? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/7 "2024-05-08T15:09:50Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > When I hear the triplet with the first and fourth beats emphasized, I think of that as 6/8. Do I have that wrong? The tempo would be like super-fast at 6/8, like over 350. It just doesn’t feel that fast to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/8 "2024-05-08T15:11:53Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > When I hear the triplet with the first and fourth beats emphasized, I think of that as 6/8. This brings up a question that has always bugged me: Is there really a difference between 3/4 and 6/8? (A difference in what is heard, that is, not how it is written on the page) mmm ETA: Perhaps, as @Maserschmidt indicates, it is in the emphasis of the beats: 3/4 = one **TWO THREE** one **TWO THREE** 6/8 = **ONE** two three four five six **ONE** two three four five six ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/9 "2024-05-08T15:33:14Z")
I assume yes: at least by definition, 3/4 is simple triple metre, while 6/8 is compound duple metre. So they are not even written the same (beaming, etc.) on the page: 3/4 has three beats while 6/8 has two. ---
**Author:** ![2\_More\_Bits](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2_more_bits/32/4148_2.png) [@2\_More\_Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2_More_Bits)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/10 "2024-05-08T15:46:40Z")
I have nothing helpful to say but I think both those songs are wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/11 "2024-05-08T15:55:55Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Is there really a difference between 3/4 and 6/8? At least in popular music, to me 3/4 would have a waltz feel and 6/8 would have a Blues/shuffle beat feel. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/12 "2024-05-09T00:07:27Z")
6/8? A very fast waltz? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2024, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-time-signatures-are-golden-brown-and-one-of-these-things-first/1001232/13 "2024-05-09T03:09:10Z")
The difference is subtle, but it is there. Generally the “downbeat” (first beat of the bar) is the strongest beat, but there can also be an internal beat that is stronger than the other internal beats, but not as strong as the downbeat. You can hear this in 4/4, where beat three is stronger than 2 or 4, but not as strong as 1. 6/8 has its primary accent on 1 and the secondary accent on 4. 3/4 will have an equally strong beat every three counts. Usually fewer strong beats results in a more fluid feel.