# What to do about immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258 "2006-03-28T16:03:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/41 "2006-03-29T15:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] … I consider security risks a far greater threat than a bunch of farm laborers. [/QUOTE] Security is not the only issue, as Fresno State classics professor Victor Davis Hanson states in his book [Mexifornia: A State of Becoming](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594030561/qid=1143644587/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-4830285-8153429?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) . As Davis said in a C-SPAN [Booknotes interview](http://www.booknotes.org/Transcript/?ProgramID=1747) : "My point was to convey to the Mexican immigrant community that we ourselves are schizophrenic about it. What do you do – for example, I talked to a farmer who employs illegal aliens and says, Well, nobody will work, and these people are the hardest-working people in the world, which they are. And then he says, But you know, I don`t want to go to this restaurant in Salma because – with my family because everybody takes their clothes off. They stand out in – with their boxer shorts, where the put their clothes in the washing machine. They sit there. And this is not civilized. And I suggest to them, Well, if you pay them cash and they`re not legal citizens and they don`t have the capital, then what do you expect them to do? So we`ve also created in California this aristocratic lifestyle for upper-middle-class Californians that would be not possible elsewhere, where we have literally millions of Californians whose lawns are cut by people who are here illegally from Mexico, whose children are watched, whose houses are cleaned. But the problem with that is that these people don`t just fly to Mars, as they would assume, given the wages that they get and given the status of which they enjoy, which they can`t participate in the civic life of California, then we have to do something to bring – give them the advantages that we do. And that means entitlements. And we have a $38 billion deficit right now on an annual basis, and we`re starting to see the wages of that. There`s a -- there`s a cycle that`s very disturbing we don`t want to talk about. Somebody comes at 18 from Mexico, say from Huahaca, very young, robust male, happy. We give him $10 an hour to pour concrete. He says, This is 10 times more than I make in Mexico. Everybody`s happy. But then, suddenly, we`re surprised when he would want to marry, have three children and get on his knees for 10 years. A knee goes out. A back goes out. An elbow goes out, and then what happens? These are no longer rite-of-passage jobs. Our children don`t do them anymore. They`re not considered a stepping stone while you learn English and gain education, but they become a perpetual job. And then when you`re 50 and you`re hurt and you have a family, then your children, who have never been to Mexico, don`t feel that America was such a great deal. They have no method of comparison, but they do see that their children -- excuse me -- their parents work for somebody far more affluent, and you get a range of bitterness. We have problems with graduation rates in high school. Four out of ten Mexican immigrants are not graduating, children of Mexican immigrants. We`re having a problem with bachelor`s degree, only 7 percent. And the employer then looks at this phenomenon and says, Well, don`t bring somebody out who has a tattoo. Don`t bring somebody out to the crew who speaks English. I want somebody from Huahaca who`s a hard worker. So we just cycle people as if they`re commodities. And it`s really amoral, and we don`t want to discuss it – left or right." That lays it out the problem, security issues aside, very well I think. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/42 "2006-03-29T16:10:18Z")
[QUOTE=WillMagic] And your point is? [/QUOTE] My point is, it’s just an aspirational poem. It’s not law, it wasn’t voted upon and it’s rather subjective. Meaning, I don’t give it much intellectual weight in the current debate and it’s Godwin-esque to throw it in here as it retards a real discussion of this issue. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/43 "2006-03-29T16:18:34Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] My point is, it’s just an aspirational poem. It’s not law, it wasn’t voted upon and it’s rather subjective. Meaning, I don’t give it much intellectual weight in the current debate and it’s Godwin-esque to throw it in here as it retards a real discussion of this issue. [/QUOTE] Yes, it was merely vacuous, arm-waving rhetoric. Unfortunately, it’s typical of the stuff that open borders advocates throw at the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/44 "2006-03-29T16:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=drewbert] Fight my ignorance, please. Can someone explain _why_ it’s so difficult and/or unappealing to become a _documented_ immigrant? I’m sure there’s a simple reason, but I’ve never encountered it. [/QUOTE] Difficult? Well, imagine a bureaucracy that requires three times as much paperwork as the IRS and operates with a quarter of the efficiency and you have the INS. Not only that, but there’s not a huge constituency that can demand Congress step in and reform it like there is with the IRS (where everyone hates them, but relatively few Americans have to deal with the INS so it’s not on the radar of most Congress critters). As for unappealing, it’s not. Just about every illegal immigrant would absolutely love to be a legal immigrant. However, demand for legal immigration permits way outstrips the supply. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/45 "2006-03-29T17:12:52Z")
[QUOTE=zamboniracer] The study you quote is interesting Lissa, if a bit dated (1996). Is there any more current information? I also note that even in the study cited illegal immigration from Mexico was 2.7 Million, as opposed to 120,000 from Canuckistan, which means that there were 225 times more illegal Mexicans than ther were illegal Canadians. If we agree that there is an immigration problem it seems clear that a much greater part of the problem comes from south of the border than from the north. [/QUOTE] Actually it is “just” 22.5 times ore. I don’t think the point so much is Canada vs. Mexico as it is the focus on Mexico at the expense of all other illegal immigration. My opjnion: 1. Amnesty for those already here 2. Easier to become documented to live an work in the USA 3. Stricter enforcement of illegal immigration ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/46 "2006-03-29T17:36:56Z")
Didn’t we have an amnesty 20 years ago? So every generation gets an amnesty? Sort of defeats the point a little doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/47 "2006-03-29T18:42:38Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] This isn’t a court of law, and the “innocent until proven guilty” principle doesn’t apply. You do understand the difference between inference and deduction, right? [/QUOTE] Yes, and I also understand that there’s a fine line between prejudice and racism. I stand by my previous assertion that there’s little difference between this and thinking that a group of black people standing on the street must contain criminals. Sure, I guess you could justify it to yourself with statistics, but it’s still Not Cool. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/48 "2006-03-29T18:50:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] Didn’t we have an amnesty 20 years ago? So every generation gets an amnesty? Sort of defeats the point a little doesn’t it? [/QUOTE] Every generation gets amnesty if the government does a poor job of enforcing it’s immigration laws. I just don’t see the point of trying to force all these illegal immmigrants out of the country. I mean, I agree with Lissa to the extent that this is not really a big problem. What really worries you Lochdale? Do you honestly think that if the illegals are sent home the standard of living in the US wilgo up? To me it is more like scapegoating. As well as political deflection. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/49 "2006-03-29T18:51:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] Yes, and I also understand that there’s a fine line between prejudice and racism. I stand by my previous assertion that there’s little difference between this and thinking that a group of black people standing on the street must contain criminals. Sure, I guess you could justify it to yourself with statistics, but it’s still Not Cool. [/QUOTE] So, you’re not concerned with what’s _true_, we’re only concerned with what’s \*cool \* … ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/50 "2006-03-29T18:55:59Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] Actually it is “just” 22.5 times ore. [/QUOTE] The nuns are going to revoke my grade school diploma for an error like that. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/51 "2006-03-29T19:00:49Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] So, you’re not concerned with what’s _true_, we’re only concerned with what’s \*cool \* … [/QUOTE] Perhaps I’m not making myself clear. It may be _true_ to say that one out of for black males have a criminal history\*, but it’s prejudiced and wrong to treat every black man like a potential criminal. Likewise, you may be able to prove through statistics that a certain percentage of those with Mexican heritage are here illegally, but it’s prejudiced and wrong to treat every Hispanic as if they’re potential illegals. Exchange “Not Cool” for prejudiced, or bigoted, or plain _distasteful,_ if you will. The English language is rich in adjectives. \*This statistic is the matter for much debate. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/52 "2006-03-29T19:20:42Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] Perhaps I’m not making myself clear. It may be _true_ to say that one out of for black males have a criminal history\*, but it’s prejudiced and wrong to treat every black man like a potential criminal. Likewise, you may be able to prove through statistics that a certain percentage of those with Mexican heritage are here illegally, but it’s prejudiced and wrong to treat every Hispanic as if they’re potential illegals. Exchange “Not Cool” for prejudiced, or bigoted, or plain _distasteful,_ if you will. The English language is rich in adjectives. [/QUOTE] Say what you will, the odds are pretty good that at least some of those guys were illegal aliens. All you are doing here is insinuating that I’m racist. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/53 "2006-03-29T20:05:43Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] Just out of curiosity, who voted for the Statue of Liberty? [/QUOTE] [Calvin Coolidge, for one](http://www.americanparknetwork.com/parkinfo/sl/history/liberty.html): > [@](#): > > President Calvin Coolidge declared the Statue of Liberty to be a national monument on October 15, 1924. In 1933 the NPS took over administration and maintenance of the statue. Blame him, and everyone who voted for him. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/54 "2006-03-29T20:24:16Z")
So National Monument’s now directly influence policy? Very well then, should I be taken guidance from Fort Sumter (declared a national monument in 1948) and repelling the efforts of any Southerner from crossing the Mason-Dixon line? Perhaps I should look to the Little Bighorn Battlefield (1946) and kill me some members of the US army or some Indians. I’ll be protected right? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/55 "2006-03-29T21:08:36Z")
I don’t think anyone has mentioned that many illegal immigrants are committing crimes, in addition to being here illegally. Consider the folowing facts ([1](http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html), [2](http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html), [3](http://www.urban.org/publications/410366.html)) : > [@](#): > > • In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. > > • A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico. > > • The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation. > USSC > > • In 1995, there were 4,081 illegal aliens sentenced in federal district courts, 11 percent of the total sentenced. > PSAIS > > • As in the USSC data, in 1995, illegal aliens represented a high share (14.4 percent) of individuals entering the Pretrial Services Act Information System (PSAIS). > SCAAP > > • The INS identified 14,262 illegal aliens among state prisoners in 1995 from California, Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois, Arizona, and New Jersey. INS was unable to determine the legal status of 48 percent of foreign-born prisoners in these states. I think fewer people would have a problem with illegal immigrants if they weren’t commiting crimes also. If it were just as simple as honest people coming here to provide cheap labor, nobody would be upset. The problem is that not all of them are here to work, and earn an honest living. Many of them exploit social services, don’t pay taxes, and/or commit crimes. I don’t care where they are from, we need to account for every person that enters our country. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/56 "2006-03-29T21:49:15Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Say what you will, the odds are pretty good that at least some of those guys were illegal aliens. All you are doing here is insinuating that I’m racist. [/QUOTE] Not at all: see “fine line” in my previous post. I _am_ saying that claiming a group of Mexicans must contain an illegal is a prejudiced statement. The “odds” may be on your side, but that doesn’t amount to a hill of beans, in my book. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/57 "2006-03-29T22:42:42Z")
[QUOTE=brickbacon] I think fewer people would have a problem with illegal immigrants if they weren’t commiting crimes also. If it were just as simple as honest people coming here to provide cheap labor, nobody would be upset. The problem is that not all of them are here to work, and earn an honest living. Many of them exploit social services, don’t pay taxes, and/or commit crimes. I don’t care where they are from, we need to account for every person that enters our country. [/QUOTE] I think the wage deflation brought on by pressure from illegals is just as big a problem. Putting that aside though obviously you’re correct that criminal activity caused by illegal aliens poses a big problem. I’ll go you one further, it isn’t even just gang activity that’s a problem, it’s normal automobile accidents that turn into huge problems. Assuming Illegals who drive most likely drive without insurance, and assuming they get into the normal amount of traffic accidents that even otherwise law abiding people occasionally get into, then there must be a huge resulting increase in everyone’s auto insurance rates. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/58 "2006-03-29T23:46:35Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] In the recent demonstrations in Los Angeles, some demonstrators burned American flags and waved placards showing a map of North America with the United States crossed out. Illegal immigration isn’t simply a question of economics. Separatists are not an isolated fringe group in the Hispanic community. Many of the illegals who come here are not the least bit interested in becoming a part of our community, and some are openly hostile to it. [/QUOTE] Baloney. Atzlan and the Mexican Movement are minority lunatic fringe groups. Now xenophobic conservative “news” sources might try to spin it that they are the norm on this subject, but it’s simply not the truth. It’s certainly not what I’ve encountered among illegal aliens. How are they openly hostile to a community anyway? Green, white, and red colors; they hablan español; open taquerías; have Bautista churches instead of Baptist ones? ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/59 "2006-03-29T23:49:22Z")
[QUOTE=zamboniracer] Assuming Illegals who drive most likely drive without insurance, and assuming they get into the normal amount of traffic accidents that even otherwise law abiding people occasionally get into, then there must be a huge resulting increase in everyone’s auto insurance rates. [/QUOTE] Allow them to get driver’s licenses and insurance then. BTW lots of folks, even ‘brown’ ones speaking Spanish, aren’t insured and are citizens. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/60 "2006-03-29T23:55:17Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Baloney. Atzlan and the Mexican Movement are minority lunatic fringe groups. Now xenophobic conservative “news” sources might try to spin it that they are the norm on this subject, but it’s simply not the truth. It’s certainly not what I’ve encountered among illegal aliens. How are they openly hostile to a community anyway? Green, white, and red colors; they hablan español; open taquerías; have Bautista churches instead of Baptist ones? [/QUOTE] I didn’t attend any of the rallies and only saw snippets on the tv news, but I wouldn’t call CNN or MSNBC exonophobic news organizations. I saw a lot of red/green Mexican flags and NO red/white/blue American flags. (Also no Canadian flags.) As I started this thread with my gut reactions, my gut reaction to seeing all those Mexican flags was to say, “This is the United States of America. If you’re so proud of Mexico, why don’t you all go back there.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258.md?page=4)