# What to do about immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258 "2006-03-28T16:03:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/141 "2006-03-31T05:18:24Z")
[QUOTE=Gozu] No offense but your post is weak. Go tell a native american from 300 or 400 years ago that north america can support 400 million people with mind-gobblingly better longevity and average quality of life. He will laugh at you as I laugh at you now. Of course, if 250 million people move into the country _tomorrow_, it would be a big problem. Not catastrophic, mind you! It would still be possible to provide everybody with enough food to avoid a famine, enough potable water to avoid cholera and basic healthcare to avoid epidemics (in other words, not too many deaths). But yeah, a big problem with serious and lasting consequences.. [/QUOTE] Have you read none of my posts? As I have said before, go ask a Native American if mass immigration was good or bad thing for his people. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/142 "2006-03-31T05:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=even sven] And let’s not even get in to the great culture wars of Switzerland! Few countries have a homogenous populace. Few countries support only one culture. America is unique in that it has managed to remain somewhat monolingual for so long. Can you name a country without more than one significant culture? [/QUOTE] They have, however, a single dominat culture. Moreover, the Swiss had their internal strife before they just managed to find non-violent ways to contain them. They still have national service from EVERY canton. Why not point to countries like Japan, China etc. who have homegenous populations and appear quite content to keep them that way. Can you name a country that has more than one dominant culture? Put another way, can you name a country (other than Belgium and even that is starting to fray) where there are two co-equal cultures? ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/143 "2006-03-31T05:45:35Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Don’t you think you’re setting the bar here unrealistically high. So if there was one robbery in five years, her point is invalid. How about 10 years? 20? 50? There are many communities that had no/very little crime until a lower socio-economic class grows in a neioghboring community and starts to spill over. When I grew up in a suburb of NYC, no one locked there houses at night or when they went out for the day. And we left the keys in the ignition. Then they built a large very mixed high school a few blocks away. I remember the amazement in the neighborhood when my brothers bike got stolen. Up until that point no on had a bike lock. Her experience doesn’t surprise me in the least. It’s not a brown-skin thing, but an economic class thing. [/quote] I live in Small Town America. Three years ago, we had our very first mugging-- a guy grabbed a woman’s purse and shoved her down in a parking lot. We’ve had three murders in as many years-- something which was once inconcievable. My point is that communties change-- crime increases and decreases. (Types of crimes change, too.) But there aren’t any influxes of minorites on which to blame our crime rate increase in the last ten years. A good portion of it comes from the way crimes are reported these days. There were always burglaries, but folks tended just to gnash their teeth and lock up their posessions better next time. Now, they’re more likely to report it. Back in the so-called Good Old Days, men could beat their wives with impunity. Now they get arrested. Likewise, forensic techniques have improved. (I mentioned the old man who was killed and his house burned to cover the crime. Perhaps years ago, they wouldn’t have been able to detect the murder and would have assumed he just died in the fire.) As a professional historian, I see old copies of newspapers from our community, dating back to the late 1700s. What I see is the same thing today-- sensational reporting of crime and blaming outsiders for causing it. (Back then, it was freed slaves coming into the area that were blamed.) The crimes may have changed, but not people’s reactions to them. > [@](#): > > The fewer the people the less the odds of that happening. And the fewer illegals that are her, the easier the it would be for the American health care system to absorb them when in need. We should shoot for zero. Actually, I’d say the better our health system, the less risk of a pandemic. If everyone had access to innoculations and treatments before their illnesses could mutate, we’d be much better off. > [@](#): > > Where they go is no concern of ours, but one idea is for them to go home. If I was in a foreign country (especially a neighboring one, and got kicked out, that’s what I would do. It may be no concern of yours, but it’s highly concerning to them. To leave the life they have built to go back to crushing poverty with no chance of getting out of it-- to take their children back to the same wretched circumstances, knowing that it’s impossible they will have a good life? No one would willingly choose that. > [@](#): > > What are you talking about? Cuba is a completely different story than every other country. (It should not be.) People return to Mexico all the time. And then sneak back in. I think you have your facts wrong on this. Cuba is not that much different than, say, China. I’d imagine they’re not too pleased with people who get deported back to their country. Likewise, other immigrants have fled civil war, dictatorships, religious/political persecution. This is not your average immigrant, of course, but there are people who would face dire consequences if they returned to their homelands. > [@](#): > > She did not say anything of the sort. Feel free to popint it out if you think I am wrong. Dude, I quoted her exact words from post # 92. > [@](#): > > She’s talking about removing one of the perks. Logic would say that the fewer the benefits of sneaking in to the U.S., the fewer people who will do it. True, but unless this country is just like Mexico-- meaning lacking any opprotunity other than a life of hopeless poverty and misery, there will always be perks to coming to the US. People come to start a new life, not just because there’s one or two benefits they seek. > [@](#): > > Like what? War, genocide, diminishing resources, pollution, lack of health care for all Americans, piss-poor education, gross abuses of political power, election fraud . . I could go on for pages. > [@](#): > > PLus, if the sheer numbers of illegal immigrants were much smaller, you’re right, it woldn’t be that big opf a deal (practically, no; morally, yes). And we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. > > Those numbers surprise me. Do you have a cite? Still, if 60% is coming from one spot, wouldn’t you think that’s where the majority of money would be spent? [This](http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lwsch/journals/bclawr/41_4/01_TXT.htm#T73) page has some statistics of interest: > [@](#): > > llegal immigrants make up less than 2% of the national population, with the vast majority concentrated in just a few states. While the stereotypical image of an illegal immigrant is of a Latino crossing the U.S. border at night, more than 40% of illegal immigrants are actually people who entered the country legally but overstayed their visas. Mexico does consistently supply more illegal immigrants than any other country, but recent figures show Canada and Poland to be the fourth and fifth most common source countries, respectively. These figures challenge the notion that illegal immigrants are all of a certain ethnic group or that they all enter the country in the same way. > > \ > > Enforcing American immigration policy usually means patrolling the U.S.-Mexico border, and Latin Americans bear the brunt of this tactic. The United States spends 85% of its anti-illegal immigration resources on border control, and southwest border enforcement accounted for 89% of what the INS terms “deportable aliens located” in 1997. > > Only four in ten illegal immigrants, however, enters the United States through the Mexican border. Though estimates of the percentage of illegal immigrants from Mexico range from 39% to 54%, over 90% of illegal immigrants apprehended are Mexican. The decision to place higher priority on border interdiction than on locating and deporting visa overstayers further magnifies the disparate treatment of Mexican and Central American illegal immigrants. Visa overstayers make up just 16% of Mexican and 26% of Central American illegal immigrants, but they constitute 91% of the illegal population from the rest of the world. This prioritization has only become more pronounced in recent years; since 1994, there has been a 122% increase in Border Patrol agents, and two thousand immigration inspectors have been added. > > \ > > There is further evidence that border enforcement is applied selectively. In a comparison of America’s two border states, INS statistics for 1996 suggest that the Border Patrol apprehends about 91% of Mexican illegal immigrants but only 28% of illegal Canadian immigrants. [This](http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/IR28/5million.html) page notes that: > [@](#): > > The number of new illegal aliens joining the long-term population each year is 420,000. This number is offset by deaths, emigration and adjustment to legal status, so that the increase in the illegal population is 275,000 annually. > > There were 170,000 new overstayers each year between 1982-1992 and 181,000 between 1992-1996. The number of new illegals who joined the illegal population by Entering Without Inspection (EWI) was 250,000 from 1982 to 1988 and 242,000 from 1988 to 1996. > > The INS estimates that 41 percent of the illegal population are overstayers and 59 percent are EWIs. This is a change from the estimated 50-50 split in its previous study. So, out of 420,000 illegals each year, 170,000 are ones which overstayed their visas, not crossed the border in the dead of night. Only 40% of illegal aliens cross the southern border, yet 85% of our resources go to patrolling it? > [@](#): > > Assumiing you are correct and great numbers of people snuck in in the past, that makes it okay and we should let people sneak in now? I don’t think so? That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that it’s not a new, sudden problem that needs attention now, now now, or else America as we know it will implode. > [@](#): > > which I maintain mischaracterized her position greatly. I don’t agree. I read back through her posts and got the same impression. Not only does she think every Mexican she sees is an illegal, she thinks they’re trying to destroy American culture. Examples: > [@suzeekay](#): > > I have an ex family member who is Hispanic so I know the Hispanic culture through her. A small window into a way I do not want to relate to the world. > [@](#): > > And I define American as ME; I’m an American. I don’t want to be in the minority because then my way of life and my mores and my culture will be subject to change over a very short period of time, not gradually, as is the usual case. > [@](#): > > How about more people who have had their lives directly affected by this flood of people from another country attempting to take over our economy and our lives? This is unprecedented. The Japanese or the Chinese in California were nothing compared to this. Besides, Asians are on the top of the list as far as intellectual ability and have a culture that promotes hard work and education. They have contributed immensely to America. > [@](#): > > Take a drive across America on Rt. 80, Rt. 70, Rt. 40; and you tell me if there are not illegal Mexicans everywhere you look. When I drive across, as I have many times in the last 10 years, there are more and more. How do I know? Because there are many, many more than the amount that would have been allowed in legally. And an inordinate number of very young males. > > \ > > So, I guess you can call me a racist. Or you can call me an American who would like the people that are “Americans” to have some say over who comes into their country, just like any other citizen of any other country. > > \ > > I don’t worry about myself. By the time America as we know it is gone, my children and grandchildren won’t even remember what it was like. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/144 "2006-03-31T13:25:21Z")
Gozu, all I get from anything you’ve posted here is that you don’t really care about the practical consequences of the policies and principles you advocate, and looking noble is more important to you than preserving and protecting our community. But then, this sort of attitude is fairly typical of liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/145 "2006-03-31T13:33:33Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Gozu, all I get from anything you’ve posted here is that you don’t really care about the practical consequences of the policies and principles you advocate, and looking noble is more important to you than preserving and protecting our community. But then, this sort of attitude is fairly typical of liberals. [/QUOTE] Preserving our community from what? “Brown,” Spanish speakers? You’re not exactly doing conservatives any favours with that attitude. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/146 "2006-03-31T13:39:31Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] No, it _is_ prejudice. When you see a group of Mexicans you are\* pre-judging\* them with no evidence other than satistics. It is the exact same thing as if I see a group of black men on the corner and cite statistics to say one quarter of them must be criminals. [/quote] There may be a very high probibility that they are illegal, but unless you PROVE it, you cannot lable them fairly. No, Lissa, it is _not_ prejudice. It is common sense and sound logic. You can, and probably will, go on denying that we have a crisis with illegal aliens, but it’s people like me who have to compete with illegal aliens for such things as work, low cost housing and pubic assistance. This is a matter of utter indifference to you, since illegal aliens seldom take work away from historians. The basic issue here is that you want to sound noble, but you want others to pay the price for your nobility. Which means that you’re on the same moral level as a chickenhawk. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/147 "2006-03-31T13:43:48Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Preserving our community from what? “Brown,” Spanish speakers? You’re not exactly doing conservatives any favours with that attitude. [/QUOTE] From a flood of illegal aliens and all the problems and dangers they bring. Your refusal to see that we obviously have a crisis on our hands and your snide insinuations of racism don’t do liberals any favors. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/148 "2006-03-31T13:51:29Z")
[QUOTE=even sven] Can you name a country without more than one significant culture? [/QUOTE] Japan (the Ainu are too few to be “significant”). Korea. Vietnam. Saudi Arabia (unless you account for the Sunni-Shi’ite divide). Madagascar. Portugal. Italy (regional variations but no significant ethnic minorities, except for fairly recent immigrants from the Balkans). Greece. Denmark. Iceland. The Netherlands. Austria (post-WWI). Germany (post-WWII). Poland (post-WWII). Cuba (multiracial but not in any sense multinational). ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/149 "2006-03-31T13:52:48Z")
Aargh. In post #146, the second line should have been part of the quote. I don’t know how I managed to screw up the coding for that. Not enough coffee this morning, I guess … ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/150 "2006-03-31T14:26:52Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] From a flood of illegal aliens and all the problems and dangers they bring. Your refusal to see that we obviously have a crisis on our hands and your snide insinuations of racism don’t do liberals any favors. [/QUOTE] You have described no crisises and have only broad brushed a certain ethnic group as being illegal because of how they look and sound. You aren’t doing conservatives any favour either pal. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/151 "2006-03-31T14:31:58Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] You have described no crisises and have only broad brushed a certain ethnic group as being illegal because of how they look and sound. You aren’t doing conservatives any favour either pal. [/QUOTE] Yeah, right. There’s no crisis. I’m just making it all up 'cuz I’m a closet Klansman. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/152 "2006-03-31T14:43:33Z")
[QUOTE=Eva Luna] Also, have any of you actually _read_ the text of the proposals currently being debated in Congress? Yes, the bills are changing day by day, but before you form opinions you might consider informing yourselves. [Here’s the restrictionist one from James Sensenbrenner](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:29:./temp/~c1090oWvGS::) that has sparked all the recent demonstrations; [here’s the Frist bill.](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d109:9:./temp/~bdW6hW::%7C/bss/d109query.html%7C) [/QUOTE] **Eva** , your links don’t work. I’d love more information about this if you could provide it. Please fight my ignorance! My e-mail is in my profile. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/153 "2006-03-31T15:01:30Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Yeah, right. There’s no crisis. I’m just making it all up 'cuz I’m a closet Klansman. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Well you’re overplaying it IMO. You really haven’t explained them. And if it’s the culture/language thing, I really don’t think that there is a crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/154 "2006-03-31T15:37:19Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Well you’re overplaying it IMO. You really haven’t explained them. And if it’s the culture/language thing, I really don’t think that there is a crisis. [/QUOTE] Why even get into that. Let’s just focus on the sheer volume of people entering the country illegally. Let’s then focus on the corrupt state south of our border and see if we can’t find ways to disincentivize people from illegally crossing the border. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/155 "2006-03-31T15:40:21Z")
> [@](#): > > No, Lissa, it is _not_ prejudice. It is common sense and sound logic. So, it’s not prejudice if I say I’m afraid of blacks because it’s sound logic that a quarter of them are criminals? Seriously-- what’s the difference? > [@](#): > > You can, and probably will, go on denying that we have a crisis with illegal aliens, but it’s people like me who have to compete with illegal aliens for such things as work, low cost housing and pubic assistance. Do I think there’s a problem?-- yes. Do I think it’s crisis-level?–no. If you lived in my neighborhood, you would face the exact same competition, but it would be from poor Americans. [qoute]This is a matter of utter indifference to you, since illegal aliens seldom take work away from historians. [/quote] D’you want to know how I got my job in the museum field? I volunteered for a year at no pay to prove myself before I was hired. And before you go thinking it’s some ivory tower career, let me tell you that my salary is mostly a symbolic gesture. With my paycheck, I can ususally buy a carton of cigarretes and cover the cable bill-- that’s about it. I do this work because I love it, not because it pays well. I don’t even have a college degree. Nor is it a matter of indifference to me when ANYONE suffers. I just think that the proposed “solutions” will cause more harm than good. > [@](#): > > The basic issue here is that you want to sound noble, but you want others to pay the price for your nobility. Which means that you’re on the same moral level as a chickenhawk. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If it makes you feel better to imagine me as a fingers-in-the-ears liberal, more power to you. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/156 "2006-03-31T15:47:34Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] Can you name a country that has more than one dominant culture? Put another way, can you name a country (other than Belgium and even that is starting to fray) where there are two co-equal cultures? [/QUOTE] First off, America does not have two co-equal cultures, we have several- perhaps the largest being African-American culture. Secondly, it is hard to find places where the majority (or racial group closest to Europe) hasn’t tried to enforce their dominance. Furthermore, there are no countries with no strife whatsoever. But some good starts are India, Suriname, Brazil…Then there are places like Kuwait where citizens are the minority! Just because “they all look the same” to us doesn’t mean there aren’t cultural divisions. **BrainGlutton** I wouldn’t really refer to Mexicans in America as “multinational”. There have always been Mexicans here. It’s not some bizarre foreign culture, it’s the same guys that founded our cities, built our first roads and started the first farms. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/157 "2006-03-31T15:51:23Z")
I confess to not having read this whole thread, but I think **Lochdale** is onto something. I see immigration, legal or otherwise, as just another migration of people from poorer areas to richer ones. It’s been going on forever. I don’t think there’s any power on earth that can stop a migration. We certainly can’t, seeing as how we can’t decide on whether we really want to. It is unlikely that the US is going to become poorer than Latin America in the near future, so if we want to reduce the number of people coming here, something needs to be done to address the economic disparity between there and here. The same goes for other countries whose residents are trying to get into America. Since this would require both political will on the part of America, along with a large number of foreign governments behaving decently toward their citizens (of which Mexico is currently the most important), I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/158 "2006-03-31T16:30:01Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] So, it’s not prejudice if I say I’m afraid of blacks because it’s sound logic that a quarter of them are criminals? Seriously-- what’s the difference? [/quote] 'Cuz I was talking about a specific group of Hispanics about which I did have some specific knowledge. It wasn’t a gross over-generalization about ALL Hispanics. If you can’t see the difference, the problem is on your end, not mine. [QUOTE=Lissa] Do I think there’s a problem?-- yes. Do I think it’s crisis-level?–no. If you lived in my neighborhood, you would face the exact same competition, but it would be from poor Americans. [/quote] I’d have to compete with poor illegal Americans??!? 😕 No country has ever absorbed as many illegal aliens as the United States has over the last several decades. Many if not most are poorly educated, unskilled laborers who greatly increase the strain on social services that would be pretty shaky even without the burden of illegal aliens. Lower class citizens have to compete with illegal aliens for work, for low income housing, for public assistance and other resources, and quite naturally they resent not only illegals but the political class which seems to care nothing about the stituation. Maybe that’s not a crisis to you, but I can’t help thinking that you must have an awfully strange definition of the word. We simply can’t go on importing poverty this way. [QUOTE=Lissa] D’you want to know how I got my job in the museum field? I volunteered for a year at no pay to prove myself before I was hired. And before you go thinking it’s some ivory tower career, let me tell you that my salary is mostly a symbolic gesture. With my paycheck, I can ususally buy a carton of cigarretes and cover the cable bill-- that’s about it. I do this work because I love it, not because it pays well. I don’t even have a college degree. [/quote] Um, if you don’t even have a college degree, by what right do you claim the title of historian? Do you teach classes, publish papers in scholarly journals or write books? 'Cuz I’ve worked in a library and that didn’t make me a librarian, and I’ve worked as a security guard and that didn’t make me a cop. [QUOTE=Lissa] Nor is it a matter of indifference to me when ANYONE suffers. I just think that the proposed “solutions” will cause more harm than good. [/quote] But you see, no matter what we do, someone will suffer. There is no painless solution to this problem. And it would be awfully nice if, just this once, my rights and interests got some kind of priority. The first priority of the United States government in this matter should be to its own citizens. A community that doesn’t exclude anybody doesn’t really include anybody. [QUOTE=Lissa] Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If it makes you feel better to imagine me as a fingers-in-the-ears liberal, more power to you. [/QUOTE] (shrug) All I know is, you seem to regard me as a sacrificial lamb whose rights and interests are expendable. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/159 "2006-03-31T17:06:33Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] 'Cuz I was talking about a specific group of Hispanics about which I did have some specific knowledge. It wasn’t a gross over-generalization about ALL Hispanics. If you can’t see the difference, the problem is on your end, not mine. [/quote] I do think one of us has a problem, but I don’t think it’s me. > [@](#): > > I’d have to compete with poor illegal Americans??!? 😕 Nope, plenty of poor honest-to-God-American people to compete for the same resources. > [@](#): > > No country has ever absorbed as many illegal aliens as the United States has over the last several decades. Many if not most are poorly educated, unskilled laborers who greatly increase the strain on social services that would be pretty shaky even without the burden of illegal aliens. Lower class citizens have to compete with illegal aliens for work, for low income housing, for public assistance and other resources, and quite naturally they resent not only illegals but the political class which seems to care nothing about the stituation. Maybe that’s not a crisis to you, but I can’t help thinking that you must have an awfully strange definition of the word. “Crisis” means to me that people are starving, or dying or in terrible danger. “Crisis” to me means all hell has broken loose and you’d better call in the National Guard. > [@](#): > > Um, if you don’t even have a college degree, by what right do you claim the title of historian? Do you teach classes, publish papers in scholarly journals or write books? 'Cuz I’ve worked in a library and that didn’t make me a librarian, and I’ve worked as a security guard and that didn’t make me a cop. I call myself a historian by right of years of study, years of training, and years of work in educating the public. I have earned that title and wear it proudly. And, yes, I actually do write. > [@](#): > > But you see, no matter what we do, someone will suffer. There is no painless solution to this problem. And it would be awfully nice if, just this once, my rights and interests got some kind of priority. Get in line behind the other Americans who need assistance-- and it’s a very, very long line. > [@](#): > > The first priority of the United States government in this matter should be to its own citizens. A community that doesn’t exclude anybody doesn’t really include anybody. (shrug) All I know is, you seem to regard me as a sacrificial lamb whose rights and interests are expendable. “Lo, the poor will be with you always.” I wish to God that I could help every poor person, and that poverty and its eradication were a real priority for our country. The fact is, you’d probably be in the exact same position even if every single immigrant vanished tomorrow. There simply aren’t enough good-paying jobs for everyone who wants one. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258/160 "2006-03-31T17:24:23Z")
**TWEEEEET!** I know this is a hot button issue for a lot of folks. However, everyone will now take several deep breaths and cool down. Nothing is _debated_ with all the _ad hominem_ attacks on the “self-righteous,” the “crazy,” the “pathetic,” the “contemptible,” and the “stupid” (whether directly addressed to another poster or simply made regarding some group into which one has conveniently already categorized the other poster) and all the sarcastic self-referential insults that have not actually been posted (“racist,” “naive,” etc.). Everyone back off. Pick substantive arguments based on facts (preferably with supporting documentation), and leave the personal observations for the **BBQ Pit**. **[/Moderator Mode]** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-immigration/350258.md?page=9)