# What to do about the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456 "2020-06-11T14:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/41 "2020-06-12T13:47:57Z")
How long until we get a “that has not happened affirmatively” walkback on that claim as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/42 "2020-06-12T13:55:35Z")
That is a very specific claim with an actual number made by the police chief. I would be willing to bet it will not be walked back. In that case I assume you agree that the police should in fact take back control. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/43 "2020-06-12T14:08:05Z")
Extortion is a very specific claim too, but that didn’t stop her from lying about it to advance her position. I don’t at all think that the police should take back anything. This neighborhood wasn’t theirs to begin with, they don’t get to take it back, or keep it under their control. It’s not territory for a gang or an army to control, it is a neighborhood the police are supposed to serve. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/44 "2020-06-12T14:18:40Z")
Actually what they said was “police have heard from Capitol Hill community members that some protesters have asked business owners to pay a fee”. AFAIK they did not retract this; they just clarified that it was not based on formal reports. The police is under the control of a democratically elected mayor. It is their responsibility to maintain the peace. If there are crimes being committed and a bunch of armed thugs stop them from responding they have the right and indeed the obligation to restore their access to the area by force if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/45 "2020-06-12T14:55:19Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Actually what they said was “police have heard from Capitol Hill community members that some protesters have asked business owners to pay a fee”. AFAIK they did not retract this; they just clarified that it was not based on formal reports. What they did was repeat a baseless rumor as if it was fact, then clarified that these rumors would not be substantiated by any future FOIA requests. Let’s be clear, I don’t want roving bands of local yokels providing police services, and using guns to keep out the official department. But this is the world my political opponents have fought tooth and nail to ensure is a possibility. They have demanded the right to take up arms against tyrannical government agents. They have demanded the right to use guns to defend their personal property. Now that it’s here, those self same opponents are acting like something is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/46 "2020-06-12T15:00:28Z")
Cops and all the various right wing authoritarian types across the country want so desperately to believe that the cops are the only thing standing between good people and anarchy. The frantic fervor in which they insist that the cops MUST TAKE BACK CONTROL of [stuff] is now extending to them lying their asses off in an effort to try and sway public opinion against peaceful protesters. Wait…what the fuck am I talking about?!? Cops have _always_ lied their asses off in an effort to sway public opinion and every word out of the mouth of Seattle’s top cops appear to be no exception. But hey, I get it. A lot of these cops grew up in a world where they could just make shit up and enough people believed their bullshit that they could literally get away with murder. I am truly starting to wonder when these idiots will figure out that cameras are EVERYWHERE and that they make proving that cops are lying idiots pretty trivial. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/47 "2020-06-12T15:04:48Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Actually what they said was “police have heard from Capitol Hill community members that some protesters have asked business owners to pay a fee”. AFAIK they did not retract this; they just clarified that it was not based on formal reports. Yeah, that’s called hearsay and is never supposed to be considered a good, solid source of information since people can, you know, just make shit up. Yes, even cops. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/48 "2020-06-12T15:10:32Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Actually what they said was “police have heard from Capitol Hill community members that some protesters have asked business owners to pay a fee”. AFAIK they did not retract this; they just clarified that it was not based on formal reports. All we’ve heard are unsubstantiated claims made by people who: [ol] [li]Have a vested interest in pushing the “Chaos&Anarchy” narrative[/li][li]SHOULD be able to substantiate their claims, but have so far been unable to do that[/li][/ol] If there really is a three-fold increase in 9-1-1 calls, that should be trivially easy to prove. If there really are business owners being extorted, this should be trivially easy to prove. They have provided _nothing_ to substantiate either of those claims. Compare that to reports from clearly identified, local organizations that nothing of the sort is actually happening. The weight of evidence is not on the side of the police. > [@](#): > > The police is **under the control of a democratically elected mayor**. It is their responsibility to **maintain the peace**. And here you miss the entire point. If the police actually were “under control”, and were “maintaining the peace”, there wouldn’t be any protests in the first place. Everyone actively supporting this Autonomous Zone is doing so at the risk of being arrested and charged with a variety of crimes. Why would they take that risk if everything was going well in their neighborhood? ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/49 "2020-06-12T15:55:10Z")
Just to be clear. Everyone here accepts the principle that if the 911 calls are legitimate, the police have every right to respond to them and use force if necessary ? > [@Horatius](#): > > Compare that to reports from clearly identified, local organizations that nothing of the sort is actually happening. Can you point to who these local organizations are and point to evidence that they have provided for any claims that they have made. > [@](#): > > And here you miss the entire point. If the police actually were “under control”, and were “maintaining the peace”, there wouldn’t be any protests in the first place. No the mere fact of protests proves nothing. There have been protests on different sides of most issues for pretty much ever. 10 years back you may recall there were Tea Party protests about death panels and the like. Did you believe them too? Stepping back a little I think it’s worth while to explore the basic principle here. My principle is simple. It’s an absolute prohibition of political violence in a democracy. No one, no matter how passionately they believe in their cause has a right to barricade a public area, and physically prevent the police from entering it. What do you believe? Would you be happy if Trumpists created an autonomous zone in a city ? Perhaps surrounding an abortion clinic ? The sense I am getting and frankly this has been a revelation to me is that for many on the left support for the principles of liberal democracy are highly contingent. If someone on their side violates them and if their cause is sufficiently woke, it is apparently not such a big deal. This is not only unprincipled it is profoundly foolish. Believe me if it comes down to mobilizing crazy men with guns the right will beat the left every time in the US. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/50 "2020-06-12T16:03:01Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > These are public streets. Of course the police should be free to go there. Why? If the police exist to protect the community, and the community decides they don’t need police protection, why do the police need to go there? > [@](#): > > I don’t know what you mean by the “community” policing itself. There are a bunch of armed people doing the policing. How do you know they represent the community? Here is a [twitter thread](https://twitter.com/MayorJenny/status/1271225850160009216) in which the Mayor of Seattle describes exactly what’s happening on the ground in that area. One quote: > [@Mayor Durkan](#): > > The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone #CHAZ is not a lawless wasteland of anarchist insurrection - it is a peaceful expression of our community’s collective grief and their desire to build a better world. Given his track record, it’s not hard to believe that Trump is wrong, yet again. > > For the thousands of individuals who have been on Capitol Hill, I think you’ve seen what I’ve seen: The painting of Black Lives Matter along Pine Street, food trucks, spaghetti potlucks, teach-ins, and movies. Guys, the “no-go zone” stories are a tired conservative boogeyman that gets wheeled out when authorities want to redirect attention from real problems. Rumors of no-go zones are (as far as I know) always proven to be bunk, but that doesn’t stop people from breathlessly repeating tales of impending anarchy in places that they haven’t seen and will never visit. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/51 "2020-06-12T16:07:26Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > The sense I am getting and frankly this has been a revelation to me is that for many on the left support for the principles of liberal democracy are highly contingent. The sense I get is that for many on the right, their support for the principles of local control are highly contingent. > [@](#): > > This is not only unprincipled it is profoundly foolish. Believe me if it comes down to mobilizing crazy men with guns the right will beat the left every time in the US. Ah, there’s that fantasy violence we all know is lurking beneath the surface. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/52 "2020-06-12T16:32:17Z")
I am not in fact on the right. I support the Democrats. What would your attitude be to an “autonomous zone” created by a right-wing group? And again if there 911 complaints of crimes from inside the zone, do the police have a right to respond using force if necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/53 "2020-06-12T16:34:25Z")
Another forum I frequent with posters that I generally trust is Hacker News. They have a discussion about the CHAZ with some (probable) first-hand accounts. One thing that residents have said is that the city is much calmer after police stopped going after the protesters with tear gas and flash-bangs. There are some links to personal photos. > **[Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23488307)** > > 588 points — > 852 comments — > obilgic — > 12:58 PM - 11 Jun 2020 I sum up: the media (especially conservative but liberal, too) are way overplaying it. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Let’s be clear, I don’t want roving bands of local yokels providing police services, and using guns to keep out the official department. But this is the world my political opponents have fought tooth and nail to ensure is a possibility. They have demanded the right to take up arms against tyrannical government agents. They have demanded the right to use guns to defend their personal property. Now that it’s here, those self same opponents are acting like something is wrong. It’s a topsy-turvy world right now, isn’t it? Gun nuts getting in a dither over people using guns against the government and liberals (largely) supporting it. That brings up an important question, though: if you support CHAZ now did you support the Bundy take-over of the wild-life refuge? If not, what makes them different? Likewise, if you supported Bundy (or were at least favorable) but are against CHAZ, why? Other than the underlying political stances they both seem similar: a group of people protesting oppressive government law-enforcement by taking over an area and making demands. (I say this while finding myself to be pro-CHAZ and anti-Bundy. Maybe we should have been less harsh on the Bundys.) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/54 "2020-06-12T17:17:42Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Just to be clear. Everyone here accepts the principle that if the 911 calls are legitimate, the police have every right to respond to them and use force if necessary ? Is force required to safe the life or health of someone? Or is it required so that an officer can show up to take a report? > [@](#): > > Perhaps surrounding an abortion clinic ? Protecting your community from pregnant ladies? > [@](#): > > Believe me if it comes down to mobilizing crazy men with guns the right will beat the left every time in the US. The right’s crazy men with guns don’t mobilize. They are inherently selfish cowards who only care about their personal welfare. They will show up at the courthouse with rifles if and only if they feel comfortable in the fact that they will go home in their own car. Give them a REAL risk of getting their asses beat, tased, gassed and thrown in jail because they wanted COVID restrictions lifted, and see how fast they don’t show up. Double that if they wouldn’t personally benefit from the lifting of restrictions. The left has long been willing to put their freedom on the line for the rights of other people. The right won’t put their freedom on the line for what they literally claim is an unborn baby murder factory operating openly in their town. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/55 "2020-06-12T17:30:51Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > It’s a topsy-turvy world right now, isn’t it? Gun nuts getting in a dither over people using guns against the government and liberals (largely) supporting it. > > That brings up an important question, though: if you support CHAZ now did you support the Bundy take-over of the wild-life refuge? If not, what makes them different? Well, while I’m being supportive, I’d happily vote away their right to have those guns. Not a question at all. Bundy’s grievance was about money, CHAZ isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/56 "2020-06-12T17:32:57Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > … > > That brings up an important question, though: if you support CHAZ now did you support the Bundy take-over of the wild-life refuge? If not, what makes them different? > … The Bundys took over Federal property. The CHAZ is on public property, right? Anyway, I was against the Bundys takeover of Federal property. They took it over because they wanted to continue to mooch. The CHAZ cause is quite different. I don’t really have any opinion on the CHAZ thing, because I’m quite certain it’s overblown. However, I don’t think it’s really that comparable to the Bundys, who just didn’t want to pay to use Federal property, that everyone else paid for. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/57 "2020-06-12T17:35:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The right’s crazy men with guns don’t mobilize. They are inherently selfish cowards who only care about their personal welfare. To play devil’s advocate, the Bundy-led take-over of the [wildlife refuge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge) would seem to refute that. They took over the refuge in large part to demand the release of the two ranchers. One of the right-wing clan lost his life in an exchange with law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/58 "2020-06-12T17:42:49Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The Bundys took over Federal property. The CHAZ is on public property, right? > > Anyway, I was against the Bundys takeover of Federal property. They took it over because they wanted to continue to mooch. The CHAZ cause is quite different. I don’t really have any opinion on the CHAZ thing, because I’m quite certain it’s overblown. However, I don’t think it’s really that comparable to the Bundys, who just didn’t want to pay to use Federal property, that everyone else paid for. (Is it possible that you’re conflating the original Bundy stand-off at the Bundy ranch with the take-over of the wildlife refuge? I agree that the original Bundy stand-off is not comparable and that they were in the wrong.) I’m not sure why it makes a difference that it was Federal property; that’s still public, no? The Seattle police are (apparently) not being allowed to enter their own precinct, which seems like a bigger deal than not being able to enter a wildlife refuge office. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/59 "2020-06-12T17:46:15Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Is force required to safe the life or health of someone? Or is it required so that an officer can show up to take a report? It could be any crime. Assault, robbery. Does it matter? If the victim wants to see the police, they have that right and no band of armed vigilantes have a right to stop the police. BTW my earlier source had somewhat confused the point that the police chief was making. It was about [response times](https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/protests/seattle-police-chief-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone-protests-east-precinct/281-7b23d0f9-c2bb-49cd-823c-1131b2f3f2d2) to crimes which have tripled to 18 minutes. That is highly believable and can be accepted without further evidence. Of course response times will increase if a key police precinct is closed. And why should any citizen tolerate even a minute’s extra delay if they call the police? The precinct is a public utility which belongs to all the citizens of Seattle and no one has a right to take it over and stop the police from using it. And from anyone who supports this please tell us your general principle for when a political group should be allowed to take over a government building and create an “autonomous zone” ? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/60 "2020-06-12T17:53:15Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Can you point to who these local organizations are and point to evidence that they have provided for any claims that they have made. They were cited by name in this very thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22350563&postcount=24](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22350563&postcount=24) " “This protest has not hurt us at all,” said Bok a Bok Chicken co-owner Brian O’Connor." " Christina Arrington, who heads the Capitol Hill branch of the Greater Seattle Business Association, said she has had “no other indications that this is taking place.” The GSBA “found no evidence of this occurring,” the group tweeted, based on conversations with area business." Two regular business people, one of whom heads a local organization of such people, who are under no apparent coercion, and who are in a position to have a much better sense of what’s really going on there than anyone in this thread, both think things are fine. > [@](#): > > No the mere fact of protests proves nothing. There have been protests on different sides of most issues for pretty much ever. 10 years back you may recall there were Tea Party protests about death panels and the like. Did you believe them too? Typical false equivalence. The Tea Partiers had nothing but stupid right-wing bullshit to support their claims. In contrast, these protestors have multiple examples, on video, of police overstepping the bounds, and literally murdering people, amongst a hos tof lesser abuses. And this has been going on for years, with no substantial actions taken to fix the problem. > [@](#): > > Stepping back a little I think it’s worth while to explore the basic principle here. My principle is simple. It’s an absolute prohibition of political violence in a democracy. No one, no matter how passionately they believe in their cause has a right to barricade a public area, and physically prevent the police from entering it. > > What do you believe? Would you be happy if Trumpists created an autonomous zone in a city ? Perhaps surrounding an abortion clinic ? If the vast majority of the citizens in that area agreed with them, and actively supported them, and there were no substantiated reports of harm or harassment of the few people who didn’t actively support them, then yeah, I would support them. Of course, based on the example you used, of an abortion clinic, even you tacitly admit that the criteria of “no substantiated reports of harm or harassment” is virtually impossible to believe would actually occur. Harassment, after all, is the whole point of protests at abortion clinics. > [@](#): > > The sense I am getting and frankly this has been a revelation to me is that for many on the left support for the principles of liberal democracy are highly contingent. If someone on their side violates them and if their cause is sufficiently woke, it is apparently not such a big deal. And again you raise a false equivalence. I’ll admit, I actually _am_ souring on “the principles of liberal democracy”, largely because of the unrelenting Republican attacks on democracy wherever and whenever they can get their hands on enough power to do so. I’d be all for a free and fair election, if such were possible, but the Republicans have made such a free and fair election damn near impossible at this point. Just look at the shit-show that was Georgia, just this week. This is how the right wants to play the game these days. Don’t fault the left for finally saying, “Fine, fuck it, we’ll do it _your_ way, fuckers.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456.md?page=4)