# What to do about the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456 "2020-06-11T14:55:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/61 "2020-06-12T17:57:27Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > And from anyone who supports this please tell us your general principle for when a political group should be allowed to take over a government building and create an “autonomous zone” ? Let’s go with this as a start: > [@](#): > > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ---
**Author:** ![ElderSign](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eldersign/32/8263_2.png) [@ElderSign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElderSign)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/62 "2020-06-12T18:05:40Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > I am not in fact on the right. I support the Democrats. > > What would your attitude be to an “autonomous zone” created by a right-wing group? > > And again if there 911 complaints of crimes from inside the zone, do the police have a right to respond using force if necessary? Left wing coups are picnics, doncha know? Right wing coups baaaaad. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/63 "2020-06-12T18:07:29Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > It could be any crime. Assault, robbery. Does it matter? That’s the entire point of this protest. Yes, it matters. The details matter when police officers use force on the residents of this country. You ask if the police have every right to use force to get their job accomplished. The answer is… are they beating the shit out of a protester to save someone’s life or health, or are they sending him to the hospital because he “interfered” with their duties? So… NO. You don’t get a blanket “Oh yes, the police can fuck up anyone they want if they think they need to” answer out of me. Response time? Stop killing people. Stop being racist. Then we can discuss your response time issues. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/64 "2020-06-12T18:11:55Z")
What an absurd comparison. American democracy today is like the rule of the George the Third ? Is there any evidence that the vast majority of citizens in the area support the autonomous zone? And it has already caused harm; it has increased police response times to emergency calls in surrounding areas. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/65 "2020-06-12T18:17:26Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > That’s the entire point of this protest. > > Yes, it matters. The details matter when police officers use force on the residents of this country. > > You ask if the police have every right to use force to get their job accomplished. The answer is… are they beating the shit out of a protester to save someone’s life or health, or are they sending him to the hospital because he “interfered” with their duties? > > So… NO. You don’t get a blanket “Oh yes, the police can fuck up anyone they want if they think they need to” answer out of me. > > Response time? Stop killing people. Stop being racist. Then we can discuss your response time issues. Response time can mean the difference between life and death in a violent crime. There are 16000 murders in the US every year and countless other violent crimes. The victims of those crimes have every right to have the police reach them as quickly as possible and a random group of thugs don’t have a right to take over government buildings and harm public safety. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/66 "2020-06-12T18:21:15Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > I am not in fact on the right. I support the Democrats. _shrug_ so you say. You seem to be very invested in the police being able to go where they’re not wanted and do things that aren’t wanted. > [@](#): > > What would your attitude be to an “autonomous zone” created by a right-wing group? First: what “left-wing group” created this autonomous zone? It looks to me like a community of residents decided the police were no longer welcome there. If a community of right-wing people occupying their own property and neighborhood decided they didn’t want the police there anymore, and nobody was using that as a cover for committing crime or interfering with business, I would have no problem with it. Only within those strict parameters. You mentioned what if they shut down an abortion clinic… that’s a lawful business, doesn’t matter if it’s a Wal-Mart or something else, that’s where their autonomy is forfeit. > [@](#): > > And again if there 911 complaints of crimes from inside the zone, do the police have a right to respond using force if necessary? This is the wrong question, because as I see it, the police are servants. They have no rights, only duties. If someone in the zone called 911 and reported a violent crime in progres, the police would have a duty to enter the zone, and the people serving as zone security have a duty to allow them access. If it ends up that someone is obstructing the police from responding to a violent crime in progress, then the police have a duty to subdue those people by force and carry out their own duties. So yes, the police still have a duty to respond to violent crime, and the community has a responsibility to allow them. But the police do not have a “right” to stroll around acting tough and stirring up trouble. This may be tested at some point; I hope it is not. I think this is ultimately all a performance art piece that will eventually dissipate when people get bored, but I hope it does result in the people being able to set limits on the police who are supposedly protecting them. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/67 "2020-06-12T18:32:41Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It looks to me like a community of residents decided the police were no longer welcome there. And you know this how? Did someone take a vote ? In any case even if this were true the police precinct does not belong to the citizens of this area. It serves the surrounding areas of the city as well. Whoever has created this zone has no right to endanger the lives of those citizens which is what they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/68 "2020-06-12T18:34:43Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > What an absurd comparison. American democracy today is like the rule of the George the Third ? Let’s look at the scorecard: > [@](#): > > He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. How many good laws have been passed by the House of Representatives, but have been blocked by the tag-team of Moscow Mitch and Trump? > [@](#): > > He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. This sounds an awful lot like Trump’s handling of the COVID pandemic. Refusing to let the governors do things, and then screwing it up himself. > [@](#): > > He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. Sound an awful lot like the Republican strategy for limiting access to polling booths: too few voting locations, in inconvenient places, adding undue burden to the process of voting, in hopes that enough people won’t bother to vote. > [@](#): > > He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands. How many Muslim Bans did they try to pass? > [@](#): > > He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. Moscow Mitch, with the full consent and approval of Trump, has endeavored to load the courts with their own unqualified cronies, so as to maintain control of the courts far beyond the next election. > [@](#): > > He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power. How many times has Trump threatened to send in the army these past two weeks? > [@](#): > > For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: > > For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: Again, the whole point of these protests is that police officers are de facto above the law in far too many instances. > [@](#): > > For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: > For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: Trump literally brags about being “Tariff Man”. > [@](#): > > He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. Okay, he’s supporting “very fine” neo-nazis and white supremacists instead of Native Americans, but the analogy is pretty clear. > [@](#): > > In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people. And no matter how often we point out his bad behaviors, and ask him to relent, he just denies responsibility, deflects blame, and doubles down on being an asshole. > [@](#): > > Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends. And that pretty much sums up every discussion anyone has ever had with any of Trump’s supporters. So, yeah, I think American “democracy” today has an awful lot in common with the rule of the George the Third. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/69 "2020-06-12T18:42:09Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Let’s look at the scorecard: > How many good laws have been passed by the House of Representatives, but have been blocked by the tag-team of Moscow Mitch and Trump? I am obviously not going to bother with your full delusional rant but let me just take this one. You do know how legislation is passed under the US constitution right? It requires votes in both the House and Senate and the President’s signature. Just because the House has passed laws which you personally like and the Senate blocks them doesn’t justify a revolution. That is just how the US constitution works. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/70 "2020-06-12T19:00:45Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > I am obviously not going to bother with your full delusional rant but let me just take this one. You do know how legislation is passed under the US constitution right? It requires votes in both the House and Senate and the President’s signature. Just because the House has passed laws which you personally like and the Senate blocks them doesn’t justify a revolution. That is just how the US constitution works. That is ok, the result in reality should be to vote the rascals out, and as for Mitch: Thanks to the tone deafness his polls numbers were statistically even with the Democratic opponent in the race to the senate for months. And the latest poll showed McGrath with a slight advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/71 "2020-06-12T19:18:20Z")
I like [Ted Cruz’s tweet](https://mobile.twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1271154145739800578?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet) on the matter (which I posted in the quickly killed Pit thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/72 "2020-06-12T19:19:12Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Response time can mean the difference between life and death in a violent crime. Racism and overt police violence is life and death too, only the police turn a blind eye to it, actively protect that violence. You can measure THAT response time with a calendar. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/73 "2020-06-12T19:37:51Z")
So a good way to protest police racism is to illegally take over a police precinct which will further endanger public safety? I think a lot of of this discussion is oblivious to the relative magnitude of different kinds of deaths. Maybe 250-300 blacks are killed by the police every year out of which 30-40 are unarmed. Meanwhile around 7000 blacks are murdered every year. Every decent person wants to reduce the number of police deaths especially of unarmed people but if you do it in a clumsy way it could absolutely increase the vast amounts of violent crime in the US which kills far more people especially blacks. And there is nothing clumsier than taking over a police precinct and slowing down response times to emergency calls. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/74 "2020-06-12T19:40:59Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I like [Ted Cruz’s tweet](https://mobile.twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1271154145739800578?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet) on the matter (which I posted in the quickly killed Pit thread.) Ted Cruz must be mad that Trump is not giving him the disrespect he is used to. As for more recent reports that make Ted Cruz sound unhinged: > **[What’s Going On in CHAZ, the Seattle Autonomous Zone?](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/chaz-seattle-autonomous-zone.html)** > > There’s free LaCroix. > [@](#): > > No, a SoundCloud rapper is not its “warlord.” > > Misinformation abounds from the right wing regarding CHAZ, attempting to portray it as both dangerous and violent as well as silly “woke-ness” gone mad. One pernicious Twitter post claimed, “A SoundCloud rapper becoming the warlord in an Antifa insurgency-controlled autonomous zone in Seattle is proof we live in a simulation,” referring to Seattle rapper Raz Simone, who, yes, has a SoundClound and is a protester involved in creating CHAZ but has not declared himself a “warlord.” The American Conservative, the New York Post and other outlets, and pundits like Tucker Carlson repeated the claim. Simone responded by posting a screenshot of a tweet claiming he was the leader of Seattle antifa on his Instagram story with the caption “yo y’all are stupid.” > > The hysteria traveled all the way up to Donald Trump, who tweeted on June 10 that “Domestic Terrorists have taken over Seattle, run by Radical Left Democrats, of course,” and that “Radical Left” Governor Jay Inslee and Mayor Durkan “are being taunted and played at a level that our great Country has never seen before. Take back your city NOW. If you don’t do it, I will. This is not a game. These ugly Anarchists must be stooped IMMEDIATELY. MOVE FAST!” Durkan responded that Trump should go back into his bunker. > > Local reporters confirm that there are some CHAZ residents walking around with firearms (Washington is an open-carry state) but that they claim they are providing safety for CHAZ and other protesters accept their presence in the area. Seattle police walked back a previous claim that some businesses were being extorted to be able to operate in the area, with Best clarifying that they have not actually had any formal reports of extortion occurring. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/75 "2020-06-12T19:43:11Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > So a good way to protest police racism is to illegally take over a police precinct which will further endanger public safety? > > I think a lot of of this discussion is oblivious to the relative magnitude of different kinds of deaths. Maybe 250-300 blacks are killed by the police every year out of which 30-40 are unarmed. Meanwhile around 7000 blacks are murdered every year. Every decent person wants to reduce the number of police deaths especially of unarmed people but if you do it in a clumsy way it could absolutely increase the vast amounts of violent crime in the US which kills far more people especially blacks. And there is nothing clumsier than taking over a police precinct and slowing down response times to emergency calls. Actually I did not appreciate when, as reports came back later, that the police was the source of a lot of what was fake regarding CHAZ. Having said that I do think that the protesters and authorities need to deescalate this with no intervention from Agent Orange ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/76 "2020-06-12T19:45:35Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > I am obviously not going to bother with your full delusional rant but let me just take this one. You do know how legislation is passed under the US constitution right? It requires votes in both the House and Senate and the President’s signature. Just because the House has passed laws which you personally like and the Senate blocks them doesn’t justify a revolution. That is just how the US constitution works. I assume you realize you’re utterly failing to refute his point. The complaint about King George is that he was blocking good laws. The Trump team blocks good laws. Yes, they do it in accordance with the powers granted them by their position. So did King George. So yeah utter failure to dispute his point. Well, aside from that cute little ad-homenem “delusional rant”, which I choose to read as your admission that you really can’t refute anything in it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/77 "2020-06-12T19:49:07Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > So a good way to protest police racism is to illegally take over a police precinct which will further endanger public safety? It’s been tried a lot of other ways, and we still have police cold bloodedly murdering restrained black men while actively being filmed and watched over by their fellow officers. The police have been openly murdering black men (and white men, frankly) for decades and the only reason we’re talking about it now is because 99% of people carry portable television studios with them everywhere they go. Protesting the police nicely just gets you shit on. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/78 "2020-06-12T19:52:43Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I assume you realize you’re utterly failing to refute his point. The complaint about King George is that he was blocking good laws. The Trump team blocks good laws. Yes, they do it in accordance with the powers granted them by their position. So did King George. With the huge difference that King George was an unelected monarch and Trump and the Republican senate are elected. Also not everyone agrees as to what is a good law or not which is kind of the point of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/79 "2020-06-12T20:05:55Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > With the huge difference that King George was an unelected monarch and Trump and the Republican senate are elected. Also not everyone agrees as to what is a good law or not which is kind of the point of democracy. How Trump and his cronies got there is beside the point, and there were people who approved of George’s rule too. But never fear, I don’t think that people who approve of Trump’s government should be forced to rebel against it. But to those who do feel oppressed and disenfranchised, Trump hasn’t exactly made it hard to draw a comparison. The only thing listed that he definitely _hasn’t_ done is raise taxes. (Give or take the people who fared negatively under his wealth-redistributing tax policies, anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456/80 "2020-06-12T20:12:36Z")
How Trump and the Senate got there is entirely the point. They were elected and the American people will soon have a chance to un-elect them which is why the comparison with George the Third is utterly absurd. Oh and you might want to learn how to spell ad hominem and also what it means. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-about-the-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/855456.md?page=5)