# What to do if Oval Office won by fraud? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391 "2004-11-01T20:07:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/21 "2004-11-02T01:58:16Z")
Once you reach the point where you have systemic voter fraud, the idea of settling matters through procedural channels is laughable. A candidate who is willing to disenfranchise thousands is going to be willing to bribe the House or have the odd SC justice thrown under a bus. Once the government abandons representation the public is either going to sit back and take it or rise up and start a bloodbath. In a case where the voter fraud is just tipping things by a few percentage points in a nearly even split, open revolt is nearly unthinkable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/22 "2004-11-02T02:06:39Z")
> [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > I strongly dispute the highlighted clause of your second paragraph below. Surveys seem to indicate that roughly one third of the electorate votes Republican, and one third votes Democrat. The middle’s independent, albeit along a bell curve. No, **F.U.** Roughly one- **sixth** of the eligible electorate votes Republican, one-sixth vote Democrat, one-sixth is independent – and one-half does not vote at all. That’s the way it’s been in most presidential election cycles in recent decades, anyway. This year, it might be a different story. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/23 "2004-11-02T02:12:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Except that the Republicans GAINED in the 20020 mid-term election. That’s quite an effect from 9/11. Wow, it’ll still be affecting politics 18016 years from now? Well, maybe by then the War on Terror will be in its final stages. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/24 "2004-11-02T02:22:27Z")
BTW: I discussed this issue in the thread [If a One Party State Took Over, but Kept a Free Press, What Should the Citizenry Do?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=281288) Briefly, my position: > [@](#): > > 1. Insofar as the latest election is concerned, roll over and accept the theft. But draw a hard line. > > 2. If electoral irregularities are easily correctable with a technical fix, stay focused on that fix. Specifically, draw up Congressional resolution -without riders- that abolishes computerized voting that can’t be audited and institutes a 20 year moratorium on computerized voting that lacks a paper trail… > > 3. Anticipate strategically timed national emergencies and military actions by the ruling faction and plan accordingly. > > 4. Use the filibuster but also remember #6. > > 5. Be prepared to mount a civil disobedience campaign… ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/25 "2004-11-02T02:23:42Z")
**Zagadka:** > [@](#): > > Class action lawsuit? Open rebellion? Well, in the event of the later, I guess that would be an end to the Democratic Party being the “Party of Gun Control.” Perhaps then there wouldn’t be anymore “Guns: What Are They Good For?” threads popping up around here, because they’d jump the shark at post #2: “For shooting yellow-dog, election-stealin’ Presidents, and all their supporters, too!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/26 "2004-11-02T02:29:33Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > **Zagadka:** > > Well, in the event of the later, I guess that would be an end to the Democratic Party being the “Party of Gun Control.” > > Perhaps then there wouldn’t be anymore “Guns: What Are They Good For?” threads popping up around here, because they’d jump the shark at post #2: > > “For shooting yellow-dog, election-stealin’ Presidents, and all their supporters, too!” My own attitude has always been, “If guns are outlawed, how will be shoot the capitalists?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/27 "2004-11-02T02:33:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > My own attitude has always been, “If guns are outlawed, how will be shoot the capitalists?” 😃 See? I told everybody that Assault Weapons and High-Cap magazines were a bad idea. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/28 "2004-11-02T02:54:10Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > **Zagadka:** > > “For shooting yellow-dog, election-stealin’ Presidents, and all their supporters, too!” I unfortunately suspect that a lot of responses would rather be “For shooting traitors who don’t support our beloved President”. I think it’s naive to assume that an armed populace is necessarily going to use its weapons to fight the oppresive government rather than to organize armed militias chasing down the traitors. If there isn’t some sort of support from some significant part of the population, nobody is going to seize power in an openly illegal way, or at least, in case someone would try, the attempt would immediatly abort without ordinary joes having to take up arms. And if the “yellow dog election stealing President” enjoys enough support to hope getting away with such a trick, you can bet that there will be people using their weapons on both sides. Being somewhat cynical, I would actually suspect there will be more of them on the “bad” side than on the “good” side. Having a right to bear arms doesn’t guarantee that said arms will be used in the way you would like them to. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/29 "2004-11-02T02:57:11Z")
**clair?** Whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/30 "2004-11-02T02:59:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I doubt it. Think of Watergate. > > Nixon resigned without being impeached, because he had lost the support both of the electorate and Congress. He had been resoundingly re-elected. > > And yet, a year or so later, resigned in disgrace. And practically no one defended him. And the new president was another Republican, Gerald Ford. Impeachment really doesn’t turn the trick of correcting a fraudulent election, since it doesn’t result in the opposition party gaining executive power. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/31 "2004-11-02T15:20:38Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I strongly dispute the highlighted clause of your second paragraph below. Surveys seem to indicate that roughly one third of the electorate votes Republican, and one third votes Democrat. The middle’s independent, albeit along a bell curve. I meant “independent to the point of not being blinded by partisan considerations”. I think the mass of voters are not going to swallow the party line on either side. I’ve heard Democrats admit that Clinton was guilty; I’ve heard Republicans admit that Nixon was. > [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Also, your third paragraph below assumes an inherent conflict between ‘partisan instincts’ and getting re-elected. I would dispute this. I might even say that circling the wagons can shore up one’s base in a way that helps get re-elected. (You recall, do you not, that Clinton’s approval ratings weren’t substantially lowered by his impeachment. Many asserted that he could’ve won a third term if not prohibited by the Constitution. Does this mean objections about his misdeeds were not ‘legit’?) No, it means that the impeachment of Clinton was not a net gain for the Republicans, which it would have been if the country were populated entirely by partisans. Which is pretty much what I meant. It became clear to Republicans that there were other considerations the voters were keeping in mind besides advantage to the Republicans. In other words, the voters were independent (in the sense I described above). > [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > It might, however, introduce the possibility that the Republican Congress had reasons other than fair-mindedness to acquit him. Exactly. Even with all the partisan reasons in the world, they held a finger to the wind and acquitted. I would expect the same to be true if Bush wins and the Democrats in Congress try to get him impeached for election fraud. Absent some fairly clear evidence, the general public isn’t going to go for that any more than they supported kicking Clinton out of office. In other words, having a Republican Congress doesn’t mean Bush would be immune from charges of election fraud any more than having a Republican Congress meant Clinton was doomed to be kicked out. > [@Frostillicus](#): > > And the new president was another Republican, Gerald Ford. Impeachment really doesn’t turn the trick of correcting a fraudulent election, since it doesn’t result in the opposition party gaining executive power. That is probably because the Republican Party was not found to be guilty of the Watergate burglary - a set of individuals were. Impeachment removes an individual. His co-conspirators can be prosecuted under the ordinary laws. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/32 "2004-11-02T15:32:57Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > \*\*Zagadka:\*\*Well, in the event of the later, I guess that would be an end to the Democratic Party being the “Party of Gun Control.” You laugh, but there have been moments when, after reading the latest article about “free speech zones” or electoral skulduggery or people imprisoned indefinitely without charge, I’ve caught myself thinking “Maybe those Montana militias aren’t as crazy as I first thought.” Sobering thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/33 "2004-11-02T16:29:35Z")
**Gyrate:** That’s the spirit! We’ll have you wearing camo, sporting an AR-15 and .44 magnum on your hip, sitting in a bunker and eating cold baked beans out of a can in no time flat. [sub]Hey! Don’t knock it 'til you’ve tried it.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/34 "2004-11-02T17:08:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Which is pretty much what I meant. It became clear to Republicans that there were other considerations the voters were keeping in mind besides advantage to the Republicans. In other words, the voters were independent (in the sense I described above). > Exactly. Even with all the partisan reasons in the world, they held a finger to the wind and acquitted. I would expect the same to be true if Bush wins and the Democrats in Congress try to get him impeached for election fraud. Absent some fairly clear evidence, the general public isn’t going to go for that any more than they supported kicking Clinton out of office. The evidence couldn’t have been any clearer that Clinton lied under oath. And yet, he kept his support. Why? Well, many supporters conceded he was technically guilty, but cited things they considered mitigating factors: e.g., that the investigation was purely politically motivated; that the act he lied about didn’t matter; that lying under oath wasn’t _really_ a big deal, etc. I would suggest there were other reasons: Clinton’s charisma and political skills; his handlers’ spinning skills; and a basic human desire on the part of supporters not to ‘back down’ (or admit that they were wrong). Funny thing though: I almost never heard Clinton supporters cite these as reasons they supported him. I suspect you and I are pretty much in agreement on this. Where we break is that I believe that similar rationalizations will be made by Bush supporters if a similar situation occurs. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/35 "2004-11-02T17:12:59Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > **Gyrate:** That’s the spirit! We’ll have you wearing camo, sporting an AR-15 and .44 magnum on your hip, sitting in a bunker and eating cold baked beans out of a can in no time flat. Ahh, New Year’s Day 2000. I remember it like it was just a few years back. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/36 "2004-11-02T17:24:15Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > **Gyrate:** That’s the spirit! We’ll have you wearing camo, sporting an AR-15 and .44 magnum on your hip, sitting in a bunker and eating cold baked beans out of a can in no time flat. God forbid. I _hate_ baked beans. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/37 "2004-11-02T17:28:52Z")
That’s OK! We’ve got a contingency plan for that! We’ve also got pinto beans, lima beans, black beans… [sub]When constructing the Survival Shelter, please remember to allow for adequate ventilation.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/38 "2004-11-02T17:56:10Z")
What a coincidence! That’s where my Trotskyist Revolutionary cell meets! Maybe we should get together for flag football. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/39 "2004-11-02T17:59:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What a coincidence! That’s where my Trotskyist Revolutionary cell meets! Maybe we should get together for flag football. Is Wolfowitz coming again? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391/40 "2004-11-02T19:39:28Z")
> [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > I suspect you and I are pretty much in agreement on this. Where we break is that I believe that similar rationalizations will be made by Bush supporters if a similar situation occurs. No, we are in agreement on that too. In a **similar** situation, Bush supporters (like me, doubtless) will make similar rationalizations. But not in a dissimilar situation - that is, not if there is significant evidence of serious instances of election fraud (or equivalent misconduct). Not by the broad majority of voters. When it was clear that Nixon really was a crook, they made that long walk to the White House and warned him he had better resign. Because he was out one way or the other. It would be the same no matter who the President, and no matter whose party was in control of Congress. For reasons both noble and venal. IMO. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-to-do-if-oval-office-won-by-fraud/272391.md?page=3)