# what touching is appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174 "2017-11-30T19:23:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/1 "2017-11-30T19:23:25Z")
I’d like to follow up on the post below from another thread about appropriate touching. Here in the US of A touching seems fairly limited outside of close friends and family. Shaking of hands and hugs should be by mutual agreement, you offer your hand or spread your arms and wait for the other person to reciprocate. You could get someone’s attention with a tap on the shoulder. Some side to side contact is allowed in tight spaces, or possibly for quiet conversation. Otherwise, especially in the workplace, I don’t know of any appropriate touching. Even among colleagues who are also close friends it’s unseemly in front of others who don’t share that relationship. First, what other kinds of touching are appropriate outside of close personal relationships? Secondly, what about DSeid’s point. Touching can be part of communication, can you grasp someone’s arm or hand to emphasize a point? Is there any friendly but non-sexual touching allowed? Can you pat someone on the head? Can you pick a bit of lint off someone’s clothes? Does such a thing require a ‘May I?’ before proceeding? Just what are the rules here? > [@The answer to your question is Garrison Keillor](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-answer-to-your-question-is-garrison-keillor/803071/52): > > A bit hyperbolically expressed maybe but not too far off from the position being taken that _all_ touch requires explicitly given permission first and that any touch without such explicitly given consent first is minimally a step towards assault. That’s absurd. > > Let’s start off a bit farther back maybe. We live in society that is perhaps even increasingly multiculturally diverse. Some cultures, some subcultures, have varying conceptions of what is assumed as acceptable touch and what touch should be understood as not wanted without explicit permission. For example there is fairly little casual touch traditionally in Germany, England, or Japan, but quite a bit in various parts of Africa, parts of Latin America, China, Italy, and France. Subculturally casual touch is a big off limits between the sexes among Orthodox Jews and many observant Muslims, but among many secularized Jews in Israel casual touch is very common. So on. > > Circumstances certainly occur in which one person is touching in a manner that is very standard within their subculture and it is perceived minimally as overly familiar or as unwanted touch by the other. > > Should the subculture with the most restrictive rules regarding touch, be it Orthodox Jews or Muslims or say a hypothetical Aspergerish tech support or Sheldonesque person, set the rules for all? Should a perception of ill intent be assumed to be correct in all circumstances? Trying to be aware and respectful of the rules of others is all well and good - a woman dealing with an Orthodox man who understands their rules should of course be respectful of avoiding contact if possible for example - but applying that standard to everyone because some are touch averse and out of fear that any touch is potentially unwanted and is potentially viewed as harassment? The Orthodox standard would be for a woman at at cash register to put money on the counter to avoid accidental contact and unwanted touch with an Orthodox male. Should that standard apply across the board to all? The touch that occurs when giving change will be unwanted some few, so verboten it is to all? Give a wide berth just to be safe? > > Forbidding all touch (or minimally requiring explicit permission before any touch) because some have touched grossly inappropriately and out of fear that any touch could interpreted in a bad way and that such interpretation will automatically be accepted by many as the reality … that might make those at that end of the personal space needs spectrum happy but IMHO making society touch free is not a desired outcome. > > Nurses are advised to use touch compassionately and to communicate empathically. It is most often discussed in the context of elder care but is across the board. Skilled nurses commonly utilize touch appropriately without any conscious thought. Is that something that should be disallowed? Should it be okay for a female nurse but disallowed if the nurse is male? Is the male’s touch more at risk of being perceived negatively? > > Again, some touch is part of normal communication and requiring explicit permission first for that is not far off from getting permission before talking to someone. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/2 "2017-11-30T19:24:46Z")
The only appropriate touching is that which occurs after clear verbal consent. Freely given consent, not “consent” obtained by intimidation. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/3 "2017-11-30T19:27:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’d like to follow up on the post below from another thread about appropriate touching. Here in the US of A touching seems fairly limited outside of close friends and family. Shaking of hands and hugs should be by mutual agreement, you offer your hand or spread your arms and wait for the other person to reciprocate. You could get someone’s attention with a tap on the shoulder. Some side to side contact is allowed in tight spaces, or possibly for quiet conversation. Otherwise, especially in the workplace, I don’t know of any appropriate touching. Even among colleagues who are also close friends it’s unseemly in front of others who don’t share that relationship. > > First, what other kinds of touching are appropriate outside of close personal relationships? I can’t speak for everyone, but I’d say almost none. > [@](#): > > Secondly, what about DSeid’s point. Touching can be part of communication, can you grasp someone’s arm or hand to emphasize a point? Is there any friendly but non-sexual touching allowed? Can you pat someone on the head? Can you pick a bit of lint off someone’s clothes? Does such a thing require a ‘May I?’ before proceeding? > > Just what are the rules here? While I wouldn’t go anywhere near as far as calling it “assault,” if you grab my arm/hand or put an arm around me for any reason, it’s going to get very awkward once you see the look on my face. Ditto those people who keep getting closer and closer to you while speaking; stay 3 feet away from me at minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/4 "2017-11-30T19:34:55Z")
Handshakes are okay in any context where you are greeting someone you know or being introduced to someone you don’t. Make the shake brief, though. Don’t hang onto my hand afterward, don’t caress my knuckles, don’t try to do a waltz twirl. Offering a hug via outspread arms is okay with friends and family, but exit gracefully if the target isn’t into it. If you do hug, do it with shoulders only. Don’t press breasts or crotches. If “faire les bises” is part of the hugging ritual, be aware that you kiss the air beside the person’s cheek, not the cheek itself. In an intense moment with a close friend or relative, other kinds of touch can become appropriate. I held my grandfather’s hand while he cried about his WWII survivor’s guilt, for example. I also hug and kiss my kid a lot. You’ll have to find your own way in explicitly romantic contexts. Other than that… no, don’t pat my back, swat my bum, lay your hand on my knee, or play with my hair. As a grown-ass American woman, I’ve known since I was a little girl that these actions are patronizing at best and predatory at worst. I’ve never appreciated them. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/5 "2017-11-30T19:36:48Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The only appropriate touching is that which occurs after clear verbal consent. Freely given consent, not “consent” obtained by intimidation. If you are walking down the street and drop something that looks important, and you don’t respond to a verbal prompt, can i tap you on the shoulder? If we’re in a noisy room can I lean close enough to you to be heard and end up touching shoulder to shoulder? Can I squeeze in next to you in a crowded space so that our hips or arms are touching? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/6 "2017-11-30T19:38:10Z")
Context is everything. If you’re an adult in the modern world and you don’t know this, why the fuck not? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/7 "2017-11-30T19:39:11Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If you are walking down the street and drop something that looks important, and you don’t respond to a verbal prompt, can i tap you on the shoulder? If we’re in a noisy room can I lean close enough to you to be heard and end up touching shoulder to shoulder? Can I squeeze in next to you in a crowded space so that our hips or arms are touching? You can tap a shoulder if absolutely necessary, yes. No, you can’t lean so close that we’re touching shoulders. Squeezing into a crowded space means a subway-at-rush-hour situation, right? In that case, yes, you’re fine, but keep your hands to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/8 "2017-11-30T19:39:35Z")
I’m the finicky sort of guy who doesn’t even touch friends and family, except the extremely rare awkward hug. I consider all forms of uninvited touching inappropriate with the aforementioned exception of the tap on the shoulder to get attention. Which is also inappropriate unless for some reason it’s impossible to get their attention verbally. Grasping somebody’s arm or hand to make a point is extremely pushy and I would interpret it as an attempt to dominate. I’m not lawyerly enough to draw the line at which pushy domination becomes threatening assault, though. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/9 "2017-11-30T19:51:55Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The only appropriate touching is that which occurs after clear verbal consent. Freely given consent, not “consent” obtained by intimidation. Why does consent have to be verbal? The OP’s example of non-verbal consent (“you offer your hand or spread your arms and wait for the other person to reciprocate”) seems perfectly adequate to me. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/10 "2017-11-30T19:53:35Z")
It’s strange to me the amount of people who proclaim to not know some of these simple rules. Asking questions about a crowded elevator or subway? Really? If an elevator is crowded, then of course, touching shoulders is going to happen. If there is only you and one other person? Don’t stand right next to them and touch shoulders. It’s not really that complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/11 "2017-11-30T20:26:50Z")
Maybe the crowded-area dividing line can be explained like this: are you touching me because I’m _there_, or because I’m a \*woman \*who’s there? The many hands that pushed me further into a crowded Moscow subway car were fine. The dangling hand that cupped my ass wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/12 "2017-11-30T20:26:59Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m the finicky sort of guy who doesn’t even touch friends and family, except the extremely rare awkward hug. I consider all forms of uninvited touching inappropriate with the aforementioned exception of the tap on the shoulder to get attention. Inappropriate? Or it makes you uncomfortable and YOU don’t like it? There’s a world of difference. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/13 "2017-11-30T20:29:56Z")
I’m going to say a fitness instructor can touch you lightly to make sure your positioning is correct. My (male) boot camp instructor will give me a light touch on my lower back to make sure my hover is in line. I find this appropriate and helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/14 "2017-11-30T20:36:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Why does consent have to be verbal? > > The OP’s example of non-verbal consent (“you offer your hand or spread your arms and wait for the other person to reciprocate”) seems perfectly adequate to me. Big Thing with **ZPG Zealot**. She’s said repeatedly that she considers a man offering his hand to a woman to be assault and women who shake hands to be whores and claims that to be the Roma way. That such is not the general view of the inhabitants of the USA, or of Roma the world over, is pretty clear. One thing that surprised me but probably shouldn’t have is that there seems to be very little gradation of touch, or of reaction to touch. Cashiers would apologize for their nails having established minute and barely noticed contact with my palm as they handed me my change; on the opposite end but the same issue, many Americans will literally shake someone awake without a previous light touch. It’s as if there is no ingrained concept of “light touch”. The concept of personal space is also different; not just a matter of bigger or smaller, but again it’s more “all or nothing”, including in the way many Americans approach a destination (no slowing down before stopping, which makes many foreigners want to jump back when someone is coming to speak to us because it looks to us like we’re about to be mowed down). ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/15 "2017-11-30T20:38:09Z")
I like touching and being touched BUT I know not everyone does so I keep my paws to myself unless I know the person’s feelings on the matter. Other people touching me doesn’t bother me in the slightest unless it’s in anger or clearly sexual in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/16 "2017-11-30T20:41:56Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > \The concept of personal space is also different; not just a matter of bigger or smaller, but again it’s more “all or nothing”, including in the way many Americans approach a destination (no slowing down before stopping, which makes many foreigners want to jump back when someone is coming to speak to us because it looks to us like we’re about to be mowed down). Hey, it’s America. If someone is approaching you and slows down and they’re more than 15 feet away, you need to expect they’ll be going for their guns. NOT approaching at full speed is the same thing as creating a tactical advantage and is, thus, threatening body language. Could be true. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/17 "2017-11-30T20:46:38Z")
So, your coworker’s kid was just killed in an accident. No touching is appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/18 "2017-11-30T20:46:49Z")
> [@B-Rad](#): > > Hey, it’s America. If someone is approaching you and slows down and they’re more than 15 feet away, you need to expect they’ll be going for their guns. NOT approaching at full speed is the same thing as creating a tactical advantage and is, thus, threatening body language. Could be true. I just keep my gun hanging from it’s sling ready to go for this reason. Just kidding but it’s [actually legal to do this](http://reaganpluscats.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Chipotle-Guns.jpg) in many states. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/19 "2017-11-30T20:48:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > First, what other kinds of touching are appropriate outside of close personal relationships? I don’t really get why ‘close personal relationships’ keep getting brought up, no one is actually arguing that you need a close personal relationship to touch someone. Aside from incidental contact (like bumping shoulders in a crowded subway) you just… don’t touch people unless you get their OK. If you do get their OK, then engage in a flurry of mutually agreeable touch. It’s really not complicated, and is the kind of thing that elementary school kids can generally get a handle on. > [@](#): > > Secondly, what about DSeid’s point. Touching can be part of communication, can you grasp someone’s arm or hand to emphasize a point? Is there any friendly but non-sexual touching allowed? Can you pat someone on the head? Can you pick a bit of lint off someone’s clothes? Does such a thing require a ‘May I?’ before proceeding? No. Unwanted touching is automatically not-friendly, so patting someone on the head or grooming their body is something that you don’t do to people who haven’t indicated they are OK with it. Grabbing someone’s arm is generally ALREADY recognized as assault, and in most places if you just walk up and grab someone’s arm (outside of some emergency), and they punch you until you let go, they will be able to successfully plead self-defense. If you really think this is an innocent part of communication, would you think it’s a good idea to grasp a cop’s arm or hand to emphasize your point when you’re trying to talk your way out of a ticket? Or pat the visiting CEO of your company on the head when he comes to visit? Or pick lint off of of judge’s collar while you’re in court? I think the number of people who would even think to try that sort of thing is pretty low, ‘communicating’ with someone in a position of power/authority over you by unwanted touching tends not to end well. Same with someone who’s likely to beat the crap out of you and mostly get away with it. For example, are you really going to pat a redneck on the head at a backwoods bar? Grab a biker’s arm to emphasize your point at a biker bar? Pick lint off of a drunken frat boy’s shoulder at a college dive bar? Just about everyone knows that those examples don’t end well. ---
**Author:** ![Arrogance\_Ex\_Machina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrogance_ex_machina/32/192_2.png) [@Arrogance\_Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrogance_Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/20 "2017-11-30T20:49:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If you are walking down the street and drop something that looks important, and you don’t respond to a verbal prompt, can i tap you on the shoulder? If we’re in a noisy room can I lean close enough to you to be heard and end up touching shoulder to shoulder? Can I squeeze in next to you in a crowded space so that our hips or arms are touching? This reminds me of something that happened when I was visiting Istanbul with my parents. My mother forgot her gloves on a park bench and a local man who noticed it tapped my arm to call our attention to it - I assume the local culture dictated he shouldn’t touch a strange woman but I was a safe target. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174.md?page=2)