# what touching is appropriate? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174 "2017-11-30T19:23:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/81 "2017-12-01T23:36:36Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > If a touchee is uncomfortable with rejecting unwanted touch, are they really going to be comfortable with saying no when explicitly asked for permission beforehand? So what’s the solution? You seem to be saying it’s okay to touch the touchee regardless of how they feel about it, since they are going to feel uncomfortable whether you ask for permission or not. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/82 "2017-12-01T23:43:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The set of touches we’re talking about here is pretty broad, but it explicitly includes grabbing an arm to emphasize a point. Now I’ve never had that happen to me, but then I’m a large male. On reading it I was astonished to hear that it happens at all - I would consider that an _explicit_ attempt to dominate the other person by invading their personal space. I would never do such a thing because it _would_ be threatening - particularly if the person I was grabbing was smaller, shorter, or frailer than me. > > This is not to say that all touches in this thread are of that type - a tap on the shoulder would have to be quite the tap to be threatening. But it’s not like that’s the only type of physical contact that is being passed off as “casual”. I don’t want to overpost, but “grabbing” _would_ be aggressive; _touching_, or even gently pulling in to talk closer and perhaps more privately, not. Bottom line, yes, the set is broad. And ranges between clearly inappropriate with rare exceptions and clearly appropriate with rare exceptions, and points in between. The OP seems to be interested in the varying concepts of those points in between. No one defends touch with predatory or bullying intent. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/83 "2017-12-02T00:11:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I don’t want to overpost, but “grabbing” _would_ be aggressive; _touching_, or even gently pulling in to talk closer and perhaps more privately, not. If you’re pulling somebody in to talk closer, that is definitely ‘pushing them around’. The idea that that’s not a dominating gesture is astonishing to me. Note that there are ways to get somebody to lean close and talk privately that do not include yanking them from place to place, and the primary difference is that they leave the person the option of refraining. Obviously simply touching is less pushy than grabbing, but at that point it comes down to the message they’re getting from the touch. Me, as a big manly man, I usually just start wondering what your deal is. Do you think your heavy hand on me comforting? Weird. (Note: In some situations context would be clear, like “You just told me that my entire family is dead; clearly you’re trying to comfort me. Failing, but trying.” I’ve never been in such a situation though.) Of course, as noted, I’m a man (and an unattractive one at that), and don’t really worry that anybody is trying to get into my pants. Approved-of ‘casual touch’ is a big part of the flirting game (or so I hear), so I can easily see how a person might suspect your goal is less than pure - even if we’re still talking about just gently touching their arm as they try to grapple with their family being slaughtered. Perhaps moreso if you go for the full-body-press don’t-release-them hug. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/84 "2017-12-02T00:25:14Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I don’t want to overpost, but “grabbing” _would_ be aggressive; _touching_, or even gently pulling in to talk closer and perhaps more privately, not. > > Bottom line, yes, the set is broad. And ranges between clearly inappropriate with rare exceptions and clearly appropriate with rare exceptions, and points in between. The OP seems to be interested in the varying concepts of those points in between. No one defends touch with predatory or bullying intent. I’m curious about your take on this example: I was doing my post-doc. I thought it was real important for me to fit in with the culture of the lab and be “one of the guys”. I suppose I first got confirmation they were “familiar” with me during the second year, when some of them started [patting me on the head whenever they walked past my work station](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321416). I never told them to stop because I didn’t know how to do that without making things awkward. And at that time, being fairly young and very socially inept, I cared too much about being “nice”. In retrospect, I should have told them to stop. I found the patting very irritating and disrespectful. But I’m curious which adjective you’d assign to this kind of touching. I wouldn’t call it “bullying” because the guys were pretty nice to me (besides the patting thing). I don’t think they intended to be irritating or disrespectful. I wouldn’t call it “predatory” either. I’m sure if you asked the guys why they touched my head, they wouldn’t say they were being bullying predators. They would probably say they were just goofing around and giving me the “good ole **monstro** ” treatment. I am not a person who gets bothered by any and all touches. I have never been traumatized by a touch. A light pat on the shoulder is totally fine by me. But vigorous patting on my head will always be giant “no-no”. I don’t even like when my own mother ruffles my hair. Now that I’m older and have fewer fucks to give, I don’t hesitate to tell someone to pump their brakes. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t cost me anything to do this. When I told my [coworker who tried to grope my arm](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=753929) to back off, the whole scene replayed over and over again in my head for the rest of the day. I felt embarrassed even though I knew I hadn’t done anything wrong. A person can help whether they touch someone. A person cannot help the emotions they experience. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/85 "2017-12-02T00:56:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ah. So since it doesn’t bother you, it shouldn’t bother anybody? … Yes. That is exactly what I said. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/86 "2017-12-02T01:11:23Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If you’re pulling somebody in to talk closer, that is definitely ‘pushing them around’. The idea that that’s not a dominating gesture is astonishing to me. … Huh. I’m a man and a small man. Was 5’6" at my peak and now 5’5" if I’m lucky. I’ve had this done to me lots and never experienced it as being pushed around or as being dominated. It’s been done by women and by guys of bulk who imposingly tower over me both. Both typically not holding and certainly not grabbing but sort of hooking with the hand in that natural curve position and gently pulling in as they move forward at the same time and lean in to speak more quietly something in answer that they really did not want to broadcast to the room that they felt was was particular importance. > [@monstro](#): > > I’m curious about your take on this example: > > I was doing my post-doc. I thought it was real important for me to fit in with the culture of the lab and be “one of the guys”. I suppose I first got confirmation they were “familiar” with me during the second year, when some of them started [patting me on the head whenever they walked past my work station](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321416). > > I never told them to stop because I didn’t know how to do that without making things awkward. And at that time, being fairly young and very socially inept … I have no scenario to offer for what you describe happened that is not them having been inappropriate at best, racist at worst. The most generous interpretation is, these being science folk, you probably were not the only one there “socially inept.” You were trying to deal with being among the guys and they were try deal with a female co-worker. At best one handled you the same as he did his kid sister and the others, seeing that you seemed to be okay with that, copied him. If looking for a word to go with that interpretation I’d go with “clueless.” Of course the Black hair thing as a less generous interpretation jumps to mind too. then the word is “racist.” I think patting an adult’s head or rubbing their hair would be widely agreed to be way on the inappropriate side. In fact I had explicitly included two of those as ones that would be weird to _even ask_ verbal consent to do, despite the good hair my CEO has. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/87 "2017-12-02T01:44:05Z")
If someone translates “touch their arm” to “grabbing their body”, that person clearly perceives and interacts with a world greatly different than the one I inhabit. Do zealots ever actually persuade others of anything other than their stridency? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/88 "2017-12-02T02:08:59Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > “Gymnastics” does not begin to describe the twisting that goes into characterizing the touch being talked about _here_ as “predatory” or “bullying”. _Even_ assuming a circumstance in which the toucher has misread the context and the body language and the touch turns out to be unwanted (which I’d posit is uncommon but admittedly nonzero), > [@TriPolar](#): > > Secondly, what about DSeid’s point. Touching can be part of communication, can you grasp someone’s arm or hand to emphasize a point? Is there any friendly but non-sexual touching allowed? Can you pat someone on the head? Can you pick a bit of lint off someone’s clothes? Does such a thing require a ‘May I?’ before proceeding? I’ve quoted Tripolor’s OP to demonstrate exactly what touch is being talked about here. Touching someone against their will with a plausible excuse is exactly predatory, bullying behavior. Grabbing someone to emphasize your point is physical intimidation. Patting someone on the head is demeaning in most contexts, as is grooming them against their will. But if you think it’s gymnastics to talk about them that way, let’s see what you yourself said about how intimidating and inappropriate these behaviors are: > [@DSeid](#): > > Certain touch would be odd to even ask for consent to give. Asking to stroke my CEOs hair (though he does have very nice hair), or someone asking to rub my bald head for good luck, for example. > > Other touch is not only inappropriate for the context but stupid to attempt. Grabbing a cop by the arm as you are stopped, for example. Now if grabbing someone’s arm or hand to emphasize a point is completely innocuous and could never be a bullying behavior, how could it be “not only inappropriate for the context but stupid to attempt” if you’re stopped by a cop? I mean, something that could not possibly be inappropriately intimate or even aggressive isn’t going to provoke any bad reaction out of a cop according to the first post from you I quoted. If patting someone on the head could not possibly be predatory or bullying, why would it be odd to even ask for consent to do so to your CEO? If it’s innocuous and anyone thinking of it as pushy, bullying behavior is so obviously wrong, why would the CEO object to your just doing it, much less asking it? The initial question asked about touching people in ways that will land you in a LOT of trouble if you try them on a stranger who’s got power over you, like a cop or CEO. And that will typically start a bar fight if you do them to someone who’s looking for a fight. The idea that there’s nothing “bullying” about doing ‘will start a fight if you do it to a dude in a bar’ actions to someone else doesn’t hold water, same with the idea that there’s nothing “predatory” about actions ‘so weird even asking would probably cause you problems’. > [@](#): > > we are explicitly not talking about those touching with intent to prey or bully upon others. That you perceive the sorts of touch being discussed here as that says something. I’m just not sure what that something is. No, that’s not true at all. The initial example explicitly included bullying behavior, namely grasping someone’s arm to emphasize a point. And it included another behavior, head patting, that simply has no purpose but to demean the recipient unless there’s a prior relationship. And a third behavior, picking lint off of someone’s clothes, that’s a grooming behavior, and very much not something that’s normal to engage in with a stranger. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/89 "2017-12-02T02:12:14Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I don’t want to overpost, but “grabbing” _would_ be aggressive; _touching_, or even gently pulling in to talk closer and perhaps more privately, not. Manhandling someone to force them to talk closer is blatantly aggressive and bullying behavior. The fact that you talk about touching people to force them to feel a connection or to talk closer to you as though it’s completely innocuous is… impressive. Again, try that ‘pull him in to talk closer’ move on a cop or a biker in a biker bar and see if they agree that it’s non-aggressive. Better make sure your dental insurance is paid up first, though. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/90 "2017-12-02T02:26:14Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So what’s the solution? You seem to be saying it’s okay to touch the touchee regardless of how they feel about it, since they are going to feel uncomfortable whether you ask for permission or not. I have never said it’s OK to touch someone regardless of how the touchee feels about it. The entire issue here is about how to determine how the touchee feels about it. Here are the options I see so far: A) Every instance of touch should be preceded by an explicit verbal request for permission. “You appear to be in emotional distress. May I place a hand on your shoulder to offer you some comfort?” B) An aspiring toucher should assess the totality of the situation - the social context, the body language of the potential touchee, and so on - and make a silent about whether the potential touchee might appreciate a particular act of touch. If the toucher is wrong in his assessment, he should apologize and not do it again. He should also know that by hewing to this policy he risks damaging or ending his career because there are people who will impute the basest motives on the toucher and use all available legal and administrative tools to punish him. C) Touch should simply be avoided whenever possible. The first option is robotic, legalistic, and sanitary. A hand placed on the shoulder after a verbal exchange like that strikes me as creepier than it would have been without the verbal exchange. The second option is dangerous; the reward (of being a decent human being who occasionally attempts to help others through tough emotional spots with some physical contact) is not worth the risk of wrecking my career. That leaves the third option as the least bad for me. Just so we’re clear, I’m not talking about grabbing someone’s arm, or caressing their hair, or smothering them with a spontaneous hug. I’m just talking about a simple attempt to offer emotional comfort via a hand on the shoulder. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/91 "2017-12-02T02:30:45Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I think patting an adult’s head or rubbing their hair would be widely agreed to be way on the inappropriate side. I would have thought so too before I created that thread. In that thread, there were folks who commented that I needed to lighten up because the touching was harmless and obviously in good fun. Although it’s tempting to just write those posters off as socially retarded idiots, I dunno if they are that atypical. My coworkers weren’t all that socially retarded or idiotic, and yet they thought head-patting was acceptable. I think if I had told them to stop, I would have been accused of being a hypersensitive “female”, not the easygoing person I wanted everyone to see me as. There were folks in the other thread I linked to who I expressed the idea that I deserved to be embarrassed for voicing my dissent to being touched. Oddly enough, a couple of those posters are posting in this thread on the “just don’t touch!” side. I guess that just goes to show how easy it is to think one understands basic etiquette (“Thou shall not touch someone unless they give you consent”), but then change one’s mind when presented with a real life example, involving real life people and real life feelings. So I don’t think there’s anything clear-cut about this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/92 "2017-12-02T02:33:04Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > No quote to offer, as I was clearly exaggerating for effect. But my point is that in much of your input to this discussion, you see nefarious intent on the part of people like me. For example… No, I see nefarious ACTIONS (touching people against their wishes) and a distinct lack of concern for others (arguing vehemently that acquiring consent before touching is an absurd standard to have). > [@](#): > > Here you have explicitly called me a liar, and claimed that I would not regret making someone uncomfortable. Moreover, you have equated a hand on someone’s shoulder with setting their cat on fire, which is getting bizarre. I called your apology obviously insincere because you are here explicitly arguing that you shouldn’t expend the minimal effort needed to prevent the harm in the first place. If you really didn’t want the situation to happen, and would regret it if it did, why not put in the miniscule effort of checking in with the other person before laying hands on them? Why insist that spending two seconds on check-in the first time you go to touch someone is some awful, unreasonable burden when it would prevent something you say you wish would never happen? Here’s a different analogy: Imagine that you had a conversation that went “well, if I run over a neighbor’s dog, I would sincerely apologize for it.” “But why don’t you check the rearview mirror before backing out? then you’d avoid running over the dog in the first place!” “No, I’m just going to back out without looking, and if the dog happens to be there well I’ll offer a genuine apology and really regret running over it”. Do you think dog-running guy really seems like someone who’s worried about running over the neighbor’s dog when he refuses to put in the minimal effort of checking his mirror before backing out? Would you REALLY consider him to regret the result when he wasn’t willing to expend a trivial effort to prevent the problem in the first place? > [@](#): > > You’ve claimed not to be arguing for prior verbal consent. But if I don’t obtain prior verbal consent, then I’m necessarily relying on nonverbal means. There would be innocent mistakes from time to time, and the way it looks now, I stand to lose a lot if I get it wrong; a person like you would accuse me of selfishly taking advantage and take all available steps to create the strongest possible adverse consequences for me. That’s the thing that bothers me; it’s the thing that makes me want to avoid touching anyone, even if I think they might appreciate being touched. The only one making baseless accusations here is YOU. I have, at no point, asserted that I would take any action against someone for “innocent mistakes”, much less to try and escalate to “the strongest possible adverse consequences” for them. That is purely a creation of your mind unsupported by anything I’ve actually advocated in this thread. (Note: The policy you advocated of “I will touch people how I want without ever asking in any way if it’s OK and offer an apology if they object after the fact” is NOT anything like an innocent mistake, it’s deliberate boundary pushing/breaking). And note that not a SINGLE ONE of the harassment cases in the news right now involve anything remotely like a misunderstanding. “Forced his tongue into her mouth”, “Hired operatives to punish her from speaking against him”, “Put his hand into her shirt,” “Showed a 14-year-old his junk” are all pretty cut and dried. > [@](#): > > If a touchee is uncomfortable with rejecting unwanted touch, are they really going to be comfortable with saying no when explicitly asked for permission beforehand? They don’t have to say no, they just have to not agree to it. The question should not be “do I not have a no?”, it should be “do I have a yes?”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/93 "2017-12-02T03:37:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I would have thought so too before I created that thread. In that thread, there were folks who commented that I needed to lighten up because the touching was harmless and obviously in good fun. Although it’s tempting to just write those posters off as socially retarded idiots, I dunno if they are that atypical. … Looking at that thread it seems like they were pretty atypical posters. An overwhelming number of people chimed in on the inappropriateness of that behavior and I think (did not read every post) I see only one “lighten up” fool. There’s always one or two. Hard to know if they even believe what they post. For the record: Patting heads - freakishly inappropriate to even ask to do. Picking lint off of clothing - mother may I. Hey Ed, you got some schmutz on the back of your shirt. Want me to pick it off for you? “Grasping” someone’s hand or arm? Inappropriate. Gently touching someone’s hand or arm in a friendly nonsexual way as part of conversation, for emphasis or otherwise - some people’s style. While I have not experienced that pulling and leaning in to say something a bit privately as being dominated or pushed around I did see it as a bit overly … dramatic. The occasional literal pat on the back, or hand on a shoulder briefly in greeting - no requirement for verbal consent but if body language communicates discomfort take note and do not do it again. You found one of the hedgehogs of society and give them plenty of personal space. A hand on hand or arm or shoulder when expressing empathy? Of course responding to the body language response to the approach and to the touch itself, which most neurotypicals do innately … that’s called being a human. Some of those sorts of touch would be inappropriate and odd, one maybe aggressive and one in one circumstance potentially racist, some part of normal compassionate communication more effective than words in some circumstances … Calling them all “neferious”? Freakishly weird. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/94 "2017-12-02T04:18:48Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Watch politicians work a room. Lots of appropriate touching without verbal consents given. Hands on shoulders, handshakes of the two hands used variety one holding the hand one up the arm, rubbing kids heads. They do it because it makes connections. Right, but they also do it because of who they are–their social role allows them to do this. Part of what constitutes the context of social interactions is the identities of the participants and their relationship to each other–in addition to the _ **event** _ which the participants _ **co-construct for that particular moment** _. If you are not a known, featured speaker (i.e., the politician, or president, etc.), you won’t be able to just “work the crowd” of a random group of people you come across. THOSE OTHER PEOPLE have to perceive you in that role. They in turn will enter into the situation on those terms, and all parties involved create–for that moment–an event in which that kind of touching is appropriate, expected and accepted. The “rules” are dynamic, and mutually negotiated–it’s not just because the politician has some kind of special skill that he or she can just turn on whenever he or she feels like it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/95 "2017-12-02T06:28:07Z")
Yup **guizot** , again _context_ matters. [A fun article from Forbes 2014](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolkinseygoman/2014/01/28/why-you-should-reach-out-and-touch-someone/#561b4e34175d) pertinent to this discussion. > [@](#): > > Why You Should Reach Out And Touch Someone > > If you found a coin, would you give it to a person who approached you and said it was theirs? Would it make any difference if the person approaching you touched your arm when they made their request? > > Well, for most people, the answers are no . . . and yes! Only 23 percent of the unsuspecting subjects set up in this experiment by researchers at the University of Minnesota admitted they had found the money when asked. But, if the researcher touched the elbow of the subject when inquiring about the coin, the percentage of those admitting possession rose to 68 percent—and they often looked embarrassed, with explanations like “I was just looking around to see who lost the money.” > > We are programmed to feel closer to someone who’s touched us. The person who touches also feels more connected. It’s a powerful force and even momentary touching can create a human bond. A touch on the forearm that lasts a mere 1/40th of a second can make the receiver not only feel better but also see the giver as being kinder and warmer. The person who’s been touched also perceives the environment as being friendlier. … > > … In many commercial settings, casually touching customers has been shown to increase the time they spend in a store, the amounts they purchase, and the favorable evaluation of their shopping experience in that store. It was observed that supermarket customers who had been touched were more likely to taste and purchase food samples than non-touched customers. Touch has also been found to increase the number of people who volunteered to score papers and sign petitions. … > > … The cultural differences in touch frequency showed up in a study where conversations in outdoor cafes (in Florida, London and San Juan, Puerto Rico) were observed and the number of times people gave or received casual touches was counted. A total of 189 touches per hour were recorded in San Juan, and two per hour in Florida. And in London during that same hour? None. > > If touch in the workplace is rare, that doesn’t mean it isn’t powerful: Bill is the head of Marketing for a telecommunications company – and a natural “toucher.” As such, he utilizes an interesting and effective communication technique. When he speaks, he touches the listener (most always on the forearm) to add emphasis to key parts of his statements. Touching ensures that, for a moment, he has someone’s full attention. Because touch is used most often when we believe strongly in something (a liar will rarely touch the one he is talking to), Bill’s touching also subconsciously enhances his credibility. … > > … Of course I’m not advocating groping or other inappropriate physical contact – and some people simply don’t like being touched in any way. But it does seem to me that in our sensitivity to political correctness, we may have lost a potent way to connect with others. Sometimes the simple act of touching to show support, encouragement, agreement, sympathy, interest or gratitude adds the personal warmth to our business communication that is otherwise lacking. And as to the use of touch in _my_ professional context, not procedurally for exams or tasks, but _expressively_, well it has [been studied](http://pubmedcentralcanada.ca/pmcc/articles/PMC3609476/pdf/bjgp-april2013-63-609-e283.pdf). > [@British Journal of General Practice](#): > > … Results > All participants described the importance > of verbal and non-verbal communication in > developing relationships. Expressive touch was > suggested to improve communication quality > by most GPs and all patients. … > > … Most doctors noted > the empathic use of touch throughout > the interaction as instinctive, human, and > acceptable. For the patient responders, > touch improved empathic clinician–patient > communication by enhancing a feeling of > being ‘really understood’. This emphasis > suggests that touch enhances the > ‘genuineness’ of the doctor’s contribution > to the interaction; … > > … In line with the current findings, previous > questionnaire evidence31 suggests that > patients feel touch is generally welcome and > that it is appropriate to be touched on the > forearm or hand. … Note however, a qualitative study and constrained to one cultural population. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/96 "2017-12-02T11:46:07Z")
I’m pretty firmly on the side of “don’t touch someone unless you have to or you’re goddamn certain they’re ok with it.” The example of politicians working a room is a great one. Power play is _exactly_ what they are doing and that type of thing is as welcome to me as a hard sell from a salesman, i.e., not at all. I think the problem here is that some people are touchy-feely and others aren’t. The touchy-feely ones see touching other people as normal and don’t see anything wrong with touching or being touched. The non touchers are uncomfortable with being touched, and also, and this is an important bit, most of them are also uncomfortable with complaining about being touched. I’d say it would take someone who really hates being touched, like **ZPG Zealot** , to have the courage to tell someone not to do it or give clear body language cues. If someone who I don’t know well pats me on the shoulder, they are making me feel uncomfortable, but it’s not uncomfortable enough to make me want to go through the further awkwardness of telling them not to do it, so I put up with it. Well done you! You’ve managed to make someone feel awkward and uncomfortable. My biggest dislike is the salesman type. The ones who have known you for 2 minutes and are calling you by some nickname, who grab you by the shoulder when shaking your hand, who offer too many compliments that don’t quite sound sincere. An outdoor blind company nearly lost a $5000 sale to me when they sent a salesman around who put me off completely with his tactics. Slimy. Sleazy. Creepy. I say nearly lost, we’d already decided to buy the damned thing, we just wanted someone to give us a price. Instead we got someone who spent over an hour admiring our view, telling us we couldn’t possibly be over 30 years old, and how fucking great we were. So. I guess my advice to the touchers is this. Please be aware that there are non-touchers around and that while not being comfortable being touched they may also not be comfortable telling you they don’t like it. By touching someone you don’t know well, you risk making them feel uncomfortable and leaving a bad taste in their mouth. Probably the biggest clue you get about whether someone is a toucher or not is whether they touch you back. If Bob from accounting never touches people then maybe you shouldn’t touch him either. If Nigel in HR gives you a quick slap on the arse after you’ve picked lint of his suit jacket, then by all means continue. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/97 "2017-12-02T11:56:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ah. So since it doesn’t bother you, it shouldn’t bother anybody? Y’know, I want to add to last night’s comment. There’s this feeling you get when someone touches you without permission, right? Even a shoulder pat or an unwanted hug. You don’t like it, your skin crawls, it pisses you off, right? So, that’s the feeling I get when someone takes something I say and twists it into something stupid in a deliberate attempt to jab me. Now that you know that, will you continue with that behavior? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/98 "2017-12-02T15:27:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Y’know, I want to add to last night’s comment. > > There’s this feeling you get when someone touches you without permission, right? Even a shoulder pat or an unwanted hug. You don’t like it, your skin crawls, it pisses you off, right? > > So, that’s the feeling I get when someone takes something I say and twists it into something stupid in a deliberate attempt to jab me. > > Now that you know that, will you continue with that behavior? \ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/99 "2017-12-02T17:08:33Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > … Please be aware that there are non-touchers around and that while not being comfortable being touched they may also not be comfortable telling you they don’t like it. By touching someone you don’t know well, you risk making them feel uncomfortable and leaving a bad taste in their mouth. … And of course non-touchers should please be aware that the studies cited above demonstrate _consistently_ and _across venues_ that expressive touch (the instinctive, natural, and often brief touch, on the hand or arm for example, as part of communication, not “grabbing”, “manhandling”, clumsy rough over-familiar arm around the shoulder done by _bad_ salespeople, or groping) is typically received _positively_, resulting in better tips, better sales, more honest interactions, higher perceptions of empathy and of “being understood”, and so on. By completely avoiding such natural touch, either out of fear or discomfort, or doing such in a way that is not natural and instinctive (such as by requesting explicit consent first, or because one lacks the typical human ability to read body language responses, or minimally ignores them), you risk making _most_ people _less_ comfortable than by using it in a natural and instinctive manner and risk being perceived as cold and robotic. It really is not too difficult for most to usually recognize those fairly few with exceptionally high personal space needs and for whom any touch from a non-intimate is felt as repulsive (even without them explicitly stating such) and once identified one should take pains to respect the bubble. A question to those who find any touch by a non-intimate to be either threatening, or repulsive, or minimally uncomfortable enough to cause offense - how do feel about eye contact? Are you also more comfortable if a conversation avoids prolonged direct eye contact? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174/100 "2017-12-02T17:48:35Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > No, I see nefarious ACTIONS (touching people against their wishes) and a distinct lack of concern for others (arguing vehemently that acquiring consent before touching is an absurd standard to have). > > I called your apology obviously insincere because you are here explicitly arguing that you shouldn’t expend the minimal effort needed to prevent the harm in the first place. If you really didn’t want the situation to happen, and would regret it if it did, why not put in the miniscule effort of checking in with the other person before laying hands on them? Why insist that spending two seconds on check-in the first time you go to touch someone is some awful, unreasonable burden when it would prevent something you say you wish would never happen? Straightforward question: Are you arguing for prior verbal consent, or are you not? You’ve said you’re not, but then you keep telling me to check beforehand. If not verbal, then what? Observing non-verbal cues and assessing context? What should happen when I read those cues/contexts wrong? A polite “please don’t touch me?” An angry rebuke for being an insensitive prick? A call to HR? > [@Pantastic](#): > > (Note: The policy you advocated of “I will touch people how I want without ever asking in any way if it’s OK and offer an apology if they object after the fact” is NOT anything like an innocent mistake, it’s deliberate boundary pushing/breaking). That is absolutely not the policy I have advocated for, so stop putting words in my mouth. The kind of contact I’m talking about has nothing to do with boundary pushing. Here’s what I said yesterday: > [@Machine Elf](#): > > Just so we’re clear, I’m not talking about grabbing someone’s arm, or caressing their hair, or smothering them with a spontaneous hug. I’m just talking about a simple attempt to offer emotional comfort via a hand on the shoulder. Do you really believe that’s about boundary pushing? That in behaving this way, I have nefarious intent? > [@Pantastic](#): > > And note that not a SINGLE ONE of the harassment cases in the news right now involve anything remotely like a misunderstanding. “Forced his tongue into her mouth”, “Hired operatives to punish her from speaking against him”, “Put his hand into her shirt,” “Showed a 14-year-old his junk” are all pretty cut and dried. Nobody in this thread is talking about those cases. We’re discussing what kind of touch is appropriate, and the idea of the mildest contact without prior verbal consent is drawing so much venom from some in this discussion that one ought to be forgiven for fearing severe retribution from a person so touched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-touching-is-appropriate/803174.md?page=6)