# What unsubstantiated historical event would you like to see verified? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895 "2022-03-11T13:46:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/1 "2022-03-11T13:46:38Z")
There are many colorful events throughout history that have been written about but not verified with evidence. It leaves the burning question, did they really occur? What document(s) would you like to see discovered that prove a particular unsubstantiated historical event of your liking? I’ll start: _“In 1787, the young Ludwig van Beethoven spent several weeks in Vienna, hoping to study with Mozart. No reliable records survive to indicate whether the two composers ever met.”_—Wikipedia Mozart did have a close association with Joseph Haydn, who told Mozart’s father, _“I tell you before God, and as an honest man, your son is the greatest composer known to me by person and repute, he has taste and what is more the greatest skill in composition.”_ That’s delightful. Mozart extensively studied the works of J.S.Bach, and when he was a child met his son, J.C. That’s pretty cool. But, the thought of Mozart meeting the great Beethoven is an event I want to be true. For two of the greatest composers of all time be so close to meeting and not doing so would be a historical crime. I’d like verified letters to be discovered written by both Mozart and Beethoven detailing their encounters with each other. Critiquing each other’s performance and composition skills would be a mind-blowing bonus. What historical event would you like to see proven? You may choose more than one (but not more than three). ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/2 "2022-03-11T13:50:13Z")
I meant to post this in IMHO. Mods, please move if you think best. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/3 "2022-03-11T13:59:50Z")
Done. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/4 "2022-03-11T14:12:05Z")
Ignoring biblical events as they are blurry at best when it comes to history, and don’t really qualify as they were written after generations of oral tradition and don’t really count as history. I would say Trump’s election in 2016, which I believe was not examined for fraud as Hillary did not contest it but I suspected that Trump did not win and 2020 reveals the lengths Trump would use to get elected despite his presidential oath to defend the constitution and his willingness to subvert the will of the American people. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/5 "2022-03-11T14:52:06Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > But, the thought of Mozart meeting the great Beethoven is an event I want to be true. For two of the greatest composers of all time be so close to meeting and not doing so would be a historical crime. In Peter Shaffer’s play _Amadeus_ \* near the end he has the “venticelli” citing from the notebook in which visitors wrote to communicate with the now-deaf Beethoven has some notes in which people “talked” to him about Mozart. I haven’t verified , but I suspect Shaffer is quoting from the actual source. It doesn’t say they met but it’s the closest thing I’ve encountered. In the Oxford Music Online bio of Beethoven, I find this: > [@](#): > > Neefe, as quoted above, had declared that the young genius should be given the chance to travel, and in the spring of 1787 Beethoven visited Vienna. In the absence of documents much remains uncertain about the precise aims of the journey and the extent to which they were realized; but there seems little doubt that he met Mozart and perhaps had a few lessons from him. … which isn’t really much help, except that other people are sure they met, too. > **[Beethoven, Ludwig van](https://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/grovemusic/display/10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.001.0001/omo-9781561592630-e-0000040026)** > > "Beethoven, Ludwig van" published on by Oxford University Press. - Shaffer’s play is a very different thing from the movie, and I much prefer it. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/6 "2022-03-11T15:59:58Z")
The construction of the Antikythera Computer. We have the device but cannot verify the method of it’s creation. What was the environment that produced it? Could the capability to produce such a complex system exist to create only one example or did it have to be made on a production line? Was it the unique product of Plato’s Academy or perhaps just one of many like computers purchased in the Rhodes Computer store? Or? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/7 "2022-03-11T16:00:11Z")
Have you seen this? > [@](#): > > Did they meet, and what were their opinions about one another’s music? > > ## Did Mozart and Beethoven Meet > > Given the distance, in time the stories that surround these two great composers vary greatly and many are difficult to put stock into. In short, Beethoven and Mozart did meet. One account that is frequently cited was when Beethoven on a leave of absence from the Bonn Court Orchestra, travelled to Vienna to meet Mozart. The year was 1787, Beethoven was just sixteen-years-old and Mozart was thirty. Mozart’s health was already deteriorating and he was producing a huge quantity of work at the time, including Don Giovanni, with little time to accommodate visitors. Also, Mozart’s father Leopold was very unwell at this time, adding extra stress to an already difficult situation. but > [@](#): > > Some claim that Beethoven and Mozart simply never met and that Beethoven did travel and stay for a few weeks in Vienna in 1787, but the invitation from Mozart and the meeting is fiction. Part of the mystery is that Beethoven is thought to have commented on having heard Mozart’s playing the piano, remarking that it was very detached and not legato at all. This information flowed down from one of Beethoven’s s most celebrated students Karl Czerny. Czerny is often felt to be a reliable source of information regarding Beethoven but in this case, it is difficult to ascertain the viability of this claim. > > Beethoven may just have heard Mozart perform in a concert whilst in Vienna, nothing more. Sadly, it does not solidify the claim that they met, or that Beethoven ever played for Mozart. In many cases, it is possible to trace the facts of historic events through diaries or letters but to date, there has been no hard evidence that can corroborate the meeting between Beethoven and Mozart. > > Given that at the time, both men kept journals and wrote copious amounts of letters, the fact that there are none that survive points to the strong possibility that the composers did not meet. What we do know is that Beethoven owed a debt of gratitude to Mozart and his influence is felt through many of the works that followed. Beethoven had many scores of Mozart’s in his possession all his life and even wrote ‘7 Variations in Eb’ on a theme from ‘The Magic Flute’ for cello and piano. [Did Mozart and Beethoven Meet Before? - CMUSE](https://www.cmuse.org/did-mozart-and-beethoven-meet/#:~:text=In%20short%2C%20Beethoven%20and%20Mozart,old%20and%20Mozart%20was%20thirty). There’s also a lengthy Wikipedia page on it > **[Beethoven and Mozart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_and_Mozart)** > > Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756–1791) had a powerful influence on the works of Ludwig van Beethoven (1770–1827). Beethoven held Mozart in high regard; some of his music recalls Mozart's, he composed several variations on Mozart's themes and he modeled a number of his compositions on those of the older composer. Whether the two men ever actually met remains a matter of speculation among scholars. > Beethoven was born in Bonn in 1770, about 14 years after Mozart (born Salzburg, 1756). In 1781, duri... ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/8 "2022-03-11T17:03:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I would say Trump’s election in 2016, which I believe was not examined for fraud as Hillary did not contest it but I suspected that Trump did not win and 2020 reveals the lengths Trump would use to get elected despite his presidential oath to defend the constitution and his willingness to subvert the will of the American people. This would be good, Biden’s son’s laptop would be nice, and of course the whole Jesus thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/9 "2022-03-11T18:12:41Z")
Fine research @CalMeacham! I have doubts the meeting ever took place. Mozart’s father, Leopold, died in 1787, the year of the supposed meeting. Otherwise I’m confident Mozart would have written to his father about meeting Beethoven, had the meeting occurred. Although Beethoven was not a child prodigy pianist, like Mozart, by 16 he was a virtuoso and beginning to show compositional talent (though he didn’t compose much till after 1790). Had they met, I’m confident Mozart would have written of meeting the precocious teen Beethoven, at least to Constanza. And, surely Beethoven would have written of meeting the by then famous Mozart. It’s a shame they didn’t plan to meet a couple of years earlier, pre-1785 before Mozart became ill and over-worked. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/10 "2022-03-11T18:52:46Z")
The fate (or existence) of a [pre-Columbian African transatlantic voyage.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_voyage_of_the_predecessor_of_Mansa_Musa) A document settling, once and for all, that William Shakespeare’s true identity was a man named… William Shakespeare. Or wasn’t. (But it was). Documentation credibly establishing the true historical influence of later mythological figures (Robin Hood, King Arthur) would be awesome, though I don’t know what form it could even take. ETA: Since that last one might not count, I choose [Roanoke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roanoke_Colony) instead. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/11 "2022-03-11T19:01:58Z")
I would like to know what happened to the crew of The _Mary Celeste_. [Mary Celeste - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Celeste) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/12 "2022-03-11T20:01:01Z")
The obvious one is the Trojan War(s); what we have about it pretty much comes from _The Iliad_ and the fragmentary Ancient Greek ‘Epic Cycle’ but the historiography are uncertain since none were written by eyewitnesses and probably not even from direct sources. The Sack of Troy probably refers to the apparent destruction of Troy VII but it is likely that _The Iliad_ is a conflation of multiple campaigns over a period of decades or perhaps even separate wars over a period of a couple of centuries. It wasn’t a single event but it would be very interesting to understand the confluence of events and conditions that led to the Late Bronze Age Collapse. There are so many conflicting or inconsistent hypotheses and no definitive evidence of causes or even when the collapse really began that we will likely never have a conclusive history. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/13 "2022-03-11T20:09:16Z")
I’d like to know who did, or did not sink the _Maine_. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/14 "2022-03-11T20:14:36Z")
I want to see what really happened inside the cockpit of MH370. It is believed by many that the captain deliberately flew the plane on a one-way suicide trip, but I would still like to know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/15 "2022-03-11T20:16:22Z")
The fake Oak Island treasure debunked. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/16 "2022-03-11T20:54:09Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > A document settling, once and for all, that William Shakespeare’s true identity was a man named… William Shakespeare. Or wasn’t. (But it was). What would that look like in addition to what we already have? I mean, we’ve got plays and poems published under his name during his lifetime; more plays published under his name shortly after his death and accompanied by various dedicatory epistles and poems written by people who verifiably knew him; and several other texts by contemporaries that praise and / or criticize him as a writer by name, one of which helpfully includes a near-complete list of works he’d composed up to that time. Short of personal letters or papers – which would be nice, but we don’t generally have them for playwrights in this era – it’s hard to imagine what further evidence of authorship would look like. On another nerdy lit-professor note, it would be really amazing to have evidence of a meeting or personal correspondence between Chaucer and Petrarch, or Chaucer and Boccaccio. And, on a personal note, I would love to have proof that my grandfather was drafted into the US Army after he came here from Poland in the 1930s. (Apparently, my brother, cousins, and I might be eligible for dual EU citizenship if he didn’t enlist voluntarily – which our older relatives think he almost certainly wouldn’t have done, but can’t prove.) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/17 "2022-03-11T21:09:35Z")
It’s been rumored that Jimi Hendrix was once asked a question, something along the lines of “What’s it like being the best guitar player…” and that he responded with something like “I don’t know, ask Rory Gallagher.” I’d like to see that substantiated. (pause) Yes it is. Historical. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/18 "2022-03-12T00:08:04Z")
I don’t know if it qualifies, but I’d love for there to be a full and complete record book of all box scores of any and all Negro League baseball games. There’s a big project at Baseball Reference compiling as much can be collected, but there’s so much history lost there, it’s tragic (in the sports world). ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/19 "2022-03-12T00:56:16Z")
Did the Bambino call his shot or not? [https://baseballhall.org/discover-more/stories/baseball-history/called-shot](https://baseballhall.org/discover-more/stories/baseball-history/called-shot) ---
**Author:** ![TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thegunismightierthanthepen/32/2981_2.png) [@TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheGunIsMightierThanThePen)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895/20 "2022-03-12T02:12:05Z")
Some things that have not been mentioned yet: - How exactly was Jimmy Hoffa murdered and where is his body? - Where did Amelia Earhart crash land and presumably die? - What happened during the [Dyatlov Pass incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident)? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-unsubstantiated-historical-event-would-you-like-to-see-verified/960895.md?page=2)