# What use did Gandalf have for magic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 1, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909 "2004-03-01T15:12:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/21 "2004-03-02T06:12:44Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > Don’t forget driving Saruman out of King Theoden. That’s kind of kinky. One wonders what he’s doing inside Theoden in the first place. Theoden and Denethor…two men who needed Prozac badly… ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/22 "2004-03-02T06:15:44Z")
Pretty much everyone Gandalf gives an order to follows it. Gandalf doesn’t give a lot of orders. But, “You shall not pass.” The Balrog does not pass. “Begone.” King of the Nasgul finds something else to do. Shortly after this, he dies. “Down, worm!” Grima grovels on the ground. Things don’t go well for him, either. “Hold!” and the entire Army of the West, along with all the minions of Sauron stop and wait patiently for the end of the world. “Fly, you fools!” Aragorn, et. al. fly. “Your staff is broken.” The staff breaks. Tris ---
**Author:** ![xvxdarkknightxvx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/34f0e0/32.png) [@xvxdarkknightxvx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xvxdarkknightxvx)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/23 "2004-03-02T13:20:23Z")
I forgot about _those_ commands! Thanks! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/24 "2004-03-02T14:50:22Z")
Gandalf did use some spells to hold the door in Moria against the Balrog (though right then neither he nor the Balrog quite knew who they were facing, though they did know the opponent was no mean foe). Finally he used a Word of Command to close it, though the Balrog’s power caused it to shatter. Still, the Big B didn’t go through that door, so I assume Gandalf’s spell worked somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/25 "2004-03-02T17:44:51Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > Pretty much everyone Gandalf gives an order to follows it. > > Gandalf doesn’t give a lot of orders. But, > > “You shall not pass.” The Balrog does not pass. > > “Begone.” King of the Nasgul finds something else to do. Shortly after this, he dies. > > “Down, worm!” Grima grovels on the ground. Things don’t go well for him, either. > > “Hold!” and the entire Army of the West, along with all the minions of Sauron stop and wait patiently for the end of the world. > > “Fly, you fools!” Aragorn, et. al. fly. > > “Your staff is broken.” The staff breaks. He does have a “these aren’t the droids you are looking for” thing going on, doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Mellon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19adc/32.png) [@Mellon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/26 "2004-03-02T17:51:09Z")
Although Gandalf’s ring is not explicitly mentioned it is clear that he refers to it when facing the Balrog in Moria: > [@](#): > > ‘You cannot pass’, he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’ > The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew.[…] ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/27 "2004-03-02T18:14:28Z")
No clear reference to a ring here. “Servant of the secret fire” probably means that Gandalf serves, Eru, the One, master of the Flame Imperishable. Wielder of the Flame of Anor (the sun) probably means that he is a servant of the Valar, who created the sun and moon, as opposed to the “flame of Udun” (Morgoth’s fortress; figuratively, hell). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/28 "2004-03-02T23:03:59Z")
Don’t forget he caused Legolas’s arrow to burst into flame in midair. Is that cool or what? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/29 "2004-03-03T00:52:36Z")
> [@Mellon](#): > > Although Gandalf’s ring is not explicitly mentioned it is clear that he refers to it when facing the Balrog in Moria: No he doesn’t. That’s a reference to the “flame imperishable” which dwells within Iluvatar and for which Melkor sought in vain. [http://tolkien.cro.net/else/gdfire.html](http://tolkien.cro.net/else/gdfire.html) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909/30 "2004-03-03T02:38:52Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Remember the fundamentals. Gandalf was present at, and participated in, the creation of space and time and the world that is. As such, he had the power of _command_ (to some extent) over reality itself. However, he was deeply enamoured with the Children of Iluvatar (elves and men) so would be naturally hesitant to exercise the power of command in the first place (knowing that the elves were entwined with the creation, while men were outside of destiny). Add on to that the limitations imposed on him along with his physical body, and he wasn’t going to show his strength unless The Music of The Ainur (or the Will of Iluvatar) required it. > > However, when he did speak a word of command, even DEATH got down off his high horse (Binky). It’s just that Saruman, the Balrog, and Sauron spoke the same language of command as Gandalf. > > Without Gandalf’s wizardly interventions, the quest would have failed many times over. Our heroes would have been eaten by Wargs outside Moria, gotten lost in Moria, Devoured by the Balrog, Rohan would have fallen to Saruman, there would have been no rescue of Minas Tirith from the attack of Mordor, and no army marching on Sauron to distract the dark lord from Frodo. > > I always found the “flashy” sort of wizardry rather showy and ostentatious myself, no? Good job. “Any sufficiently advanced technology…” 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-use-did-gandalf-have-for-magic/231909.md?page=1)