# What was a herd of swine doing in Israel in Jesus' day?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 26, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330 "2012-06-26T07:14:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/21 "2012-06-26T13:21:23Z")
> [@monavis](#):
>
> It was my understanding that during that time in history Swine carried many deceases and that was one of the reason’s pork was considered unclean.
> [@si\_blakely](#):
>
> Pork can carry parasites that will infect humans and make them sick, but in the time those laws were being codified, lots of things would make people sick and die. I doubt that they could have been specific enough to identify pig meat in particular. And plenty of other people groups ate pork and got on fine. There are probably [other reasons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_animals#Pigs), as noted here.
>
> Si
> [@TonySinclair](#):
>
> Anybody who claims that the Jewish dietary laws show divine knowledge of parasitology has to explain why there aren’t verses in the Bible about washing your hands before and after treating the sick or wounded, boiling water before drinking it, etc. Very simple things that would have saved countless lives.
Sinclair is correct. The prohibition on swine is merely a codification of cultural practice. According to Marvin Harris (in _Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches_), pigs were naturally a foraging forest creature. When put in the context of the environment of the Middle East, they competed with humans for food, so it became uneconomical to raise pigs for food. Thus, the communities that stopped eating pork became generally more successful than the communities that continued to eat pork. It was cultural survival of the fittest. And once pork-shunning became dominant, it was encoded into cultural norms.
That’s the same way that beef-shunning became dominant in India. The difference is that cattle still played a very important role, in providing dairy products and as draft animals for farming. (Indeed, that was the reason that it was more economical not to kill cows for food.) Thus, cattle became revered in Hinduism whereas pigs became shunned in Judaism.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/22 "2012-06-26T13:33:33Z")
There is a blessing and washing of hands before Shabbes dinner…Rabbi Telushkin, where are you? 🙂
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### Author:  [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/23 "2012-06-26T13:47:53Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#):
>
> Anybody who claims that the Jewish dietary laws show divine knowledge of parasitology has to explain why there aren’t verses in the Bible about washing your hands before and after treating the sick or wounded, boiling water before drinking it, etc. Very simple things that would have saved countless lives.
They had a rigorous approach to infectious skin diseases and mildew, though. 😉
But I agree - cultural codification is the better explanation. I might have to look at that Harris book sometime.
Si
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/24 "2012-06-26T13:49:49Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#):
>
> There is a blessing and washing of hands before Shabbes dinner…Rabbi Telushkin, where are you? 🙂
Not just before Shabbat dinner - Judaism has a fairly complex [ritual washing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_washing_in_Judaism)system, which includes washing hands before each meal. However, current theory states that this last custom actually originated from Hellenistic influence, which post-dates the prohibition on pork.
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### Author:  [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/25 "2012-06-26T14:02:16Z")
I sometimes wonder whether folks think that the ancients were morons. Ancient people had the same potential for intelligence that we do. There may have been fewer whose Mothers had proper nutrition, so fewer who reached their full potential, but there woudl also have been quite a few more than capable of making simple deductions.
“There is a debilitating disease (trichinosis, say,) that occurs among those seven peoples, and never among these three. The three that never get it also don’t eat pork. Otherwise they live in the same region and in generally the same way. . . Hmmmnnnnnn”
I don’t find it so terribly surprising. there were, as we know, traveling wise men and traders who visited from place to place.
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### Author:  [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/26 "2012-06-26T14:03:59Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#):
>
> Anybody who claims that the Jewish dietary laws show divine knowledge of parasitology has to explain why there aren’t verses in the Bible about washing your hands before and after treating the sick or wounded, boiling water before drinking it, etc. Very simple things that would have saved countless lives.
Jesus did talk about washing hands before meals.
He said not to bother.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/27 "2012-06-26T14:06:56Z")
> [@TruCelt](#):
>
> I sometimes wonder whether folks think that the ancients were morons. Ancient people had the same potential for intelligence that we do. There may have been fewer whose Mothers had proper nutrition, so fewer who reached their full potential, but there woudl also have been quite a few more than capable of making simple deductions.
>
> “There is a debilitating disease (trichinosis, say,) that occurs among those seven peoples, and never among these three. The three that never get it also don’t eat pork. Otherwise they live in the same region and in generally the same way. . . Hmmmnnnnnn”
>
> I don’t find it so terribly surprising. there were, as we know, traveling wise men and traders who visited from place to place.
It’s not like pork has some unique status as “the meat that will make you sick.” It’s not a poison. It’s a meat product that for the most part is just as beneficial to people as any other meat product. Occasionally pork can harbor some kind of danger, but that’s true of any kind of meat. It’s also true that people would quickly have learned that thorough cooking of pork would largely eliminate most dangers of infection, just like with any other meat. On health grounds, the ancients would have no more reason to shun pork entirely than any other kind of food source.
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### Author:  [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/28 "2012-06-26T14:35:56Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#):
>
> They stampeded off a cliff into the lake of Galilee and [drowned](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism_of_the_Gerasene_demoniac).
>
> Si
Poor little guys.
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### Author:  [@Dufus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dufus)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/29 "2012-06-26T15:34:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> It’s not like pork has some unique status as “the meat that will make you sick.” It’s not a poison. It’s a meat product that for the most part is just as beneficial to people as any other meat product. Occasionally pork can harbor some kind of danger, but that’s true of any kind of meat. It’s also true that people would quickly have learned that thorough cooking of pork would largely eliminate most dangers of infection, just like with any other meat. On health grounds, the ancients would have no more reason to shun pork entirely than any other kind of food source.
Pigs eat dead animals, just like buzzards do. People saw that and said “yuck, don’t eat pigs or buzzards!” They saw catfish eating doo doo and said “yuck, don’t eat catfish!”
The claim of being “grain fed” pigs and catfish soothes a lot of fears, but for some reason “grain fed buzzards” still don’t sell.
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### Author:  [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/30 "2012-06-26T15:40:04Z")
I asked this question 4 1/2 years ago. The answer I was given was that it occurred outside Judea, in a Greco-roman area.
[Mark 5:13](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448429)
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/31 "2012-06-26T15:43:43Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#):
>
> They stampeded off a cliff into the lake of Galilee and [drowned](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism_of_the_Gerasene_demoniac).
>
> Si
Perhaps they were actually lemmings and the story got pumped up a bit because a herd of demon-infested lemmings doesn’t really make much of a campfire story.
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/32 "2012-06-26T15:52:35Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> Perhaps they were actually lemmings and the story got pumped up a bit because a herd of demon-infested lemmings doesn’t really make much of a campfire story.
I think you may have something there…
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### Author:  [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/33 "2012-06-26T15:54:58Z")
> [@monavis](#):
>
> It was my understanding that during that time in history Swine carried many deceases and that was one of the reason’s pork was considered unclean.
"Pigs sleep and root in shit. That’s a filthy animal. I ain’t eat nothin’ that ain’t got sense enough to disregard its own feces. "
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/34 "2012-06-26T16:03:14Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> Any idea how the swine committed mass suicide?
>
> (And I guess that would be called “soo-eee-cide.”)
In fact, as I’m sure you remember, the Latin for “pig” is “_sus_”, and so, in dog-Latin at least, but not in pig-Latin, ironically, “suicide” would pass muster as meaning “pig-killing”. 😃
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/35 "2012-06-26T16:08:11Z")
Alessan:
> [@](#):
>
> However, current theory states that this last custom actually originated from Hellenistic influence, which post-dates the prohibition on pork.
Whose “current theory” is this? Immersion in water to purify one’s self from ritual impurity is mentioned explicitly in the Bible, the Rabbis added a minor level of ritual impurity to the hands (because they touch lots of stuff, and people are unlikely to keep track of the purity status of everything they touch), necessitating that Kohanim eating foods with a certain degree of holiness wash (or immerse) their hands beforehand, and the practice was adapted to all Jews before meals (bread being the staple of the meal) after the destruction of the Holy Temple, so we’ll always remember Temple practice.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/36 "2012-06-26T16:08:16Z")
> [@Dufus](#):
>
> Pigs eat dead animals, just like buzzards do. People saw that and said “yuck, don’t eat pigs or buzzards!” They saw catfish eating doo doo and said “yuck, don’t eat catfish!”
>
> The claim of being “grain fed” pigs and catfish soothes a lot of fears, but for some reason “grain fed buzzards” still don’t sell.
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#):
>
> "Pigs sleep and root in shit. That’s a filthy animal. I ain’t eat nothin’ that ain’t got sense enough to disregard its own feces. "
Actually, neither of these things would necessarily be apparent to ancient Middle Easterners. Wild pigs are forest foragers who, although they are omnivorous, when given a choice, they mostly eat vegetable matter. They take shelter from the heat under the forest canopy.
It’s only when pigs are domesticated by people in a hot place with little shade that they are forced to cool themselves in the mud, which includes their own feces, because that’s the situation that’s available to them. And, of course, in such situations, their diet is whatever human society manages to offer them.
And, anyway, if it had been so apparent that pigs are disgusting creatures, then why are they one of the most commonly domesticated and eaten animals in the world? Along with cattle, chickens, goats, and sheep, pigs are among the main types of livestock.
Furthermore, as Harris points out, there survived pockets of areas in the Middle East, even amongst Muslims, where pork continued to be consumed (sometimes on the sly, if necessary). And those pockets were located in precisely those places where keeping and raising pigs for food remained compatible with the environment and was economical.
As for vultures, I might point out that carnivorous birds, or, indeed, any carnivorous animal, is rarely an efficient source of calories for humans.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/37 "2012-06-26T16:13:47Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Quoth **si\_blakely** :
>
> They had a rigorous approach to infectious skin diseases and mildew, though. 😉
Their approach was basically “quarantine until it clears up”. Which is about as good as they could do, with anything short of 20th-century medical technology. The old canard about rubbing some moldy bread on it doesn’t actually work, and would probably make things worse: It’s a lot more complicated than that to make penicillin.
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### Author:  [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/38 "2012-06-26T16:39:39Z")
Too bad there’s no account of Jesus’ reaction to the pigs’ suicides. Was he “Oh shit! Listen, sorry pigs!” or “Fuck 'em. They’re just pigs?”
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### Author:  [@Dufus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dufus)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/39 "2012-06-26T17:25:59Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#):
>
> Too bad there’s no account of Jesus’ reaction to the pigs’ suicides. Was he “Oh shit! Listen, sorry pigs!” or “Fuck 'em. They’re just pigs?”
I’ve always wondered about that too. And I bet the guy who had invested his time and money in raising those 2000 pigs wasn’t very amused either.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-herd-of-swine-doing-in-israel-in-jesus-day/626330/40 "2012-06-26T17:34:40Z")
> [@Dufus](#):
>
> I’ve always wondered about that too. And I bet the guy who had invested his time and money in raising those 2000 pigs wasn’t very amused either.
Tough. Act of God.
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