# What Was a "Hieronymous" Machine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 5, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418 "2009-05-05T14:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RevSteve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@RevSteve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RevSteve)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/61 "2009-05-19T02:28:28Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I found out what eloptic energy can do. It makes [Miracle Soap](http://www.musicaltop.com/ItemB0014TDE5E.aspx)! > BTW, I’ve checked and can’t find any other mention of the insane claims for Hieronymus made on the site Xema linked to, like this one: > > That must be some major conspiracy on the part of the world to hide that amazing feat so thoroughly. > > Nobody has mentioned this bit from RevSteve. > > Absolutely wrong. This experiment proves that time moves differently in different reference frames. It has nothing to do with time travel, let alone proves it. If you can’t understand standard science you’ll be even less likely to be believed when you make claims about non-standard science. > > I also don’t understand why you seem to imply that you are the only person who builds “true” machines yet you expect others to do the research for you, although you don’t say anything about making the machines available to others. > > And just to dispose of one other claim, no inventor ever does “demonstrations for the patent offices.” The patent office doesn’t have the time to check on whether anything works or not. It just takes a claim and sees if it is novel and not perpetual motion. Many, many patents are for things that don’t and can’t work. The experiment was to prove or disprove time dilation which it did so it is absolutly right. You are mincing words to come up with an argument that appears to contradict my statment. If we can ever build an engine that can propell a vessel at relativistic speed we know that a vessel will travel into the future. It is your misunderstanding of standard science that sets you in denial of this proven fact. If by different frames of refferance you mean that time passes differently for the crew of a relativistic spacecraft, then perhaps you have a point but they still end up in the future. We also have evidence that an object moving at transluminal speeds may travel into the past regardless of the refferance frame. A simple non exhaustive search of the web will reveal this information. [http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Why+faster+than+light+implies+back+in+time&lastnode\_id=811453&searchy=search](http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Why+faster+than+light+implies+back+in+time&lastnode_id=811453&searchy=search) I do not own the copyrights to the material, Bill Jensen does I cannot post it without his permission. He sells the material for a very reasonable price, you can find him on the web. In 1949 the patent office did in fact demanded that Hieronymus prove his claims even though they may no longer do this. I get suspiscious when people talk about a of conspiracy of suppression. I do however understand standard science quite well. Your desire to debunk what I say can hardly be contained. I did not invent this technology I did an unbiased experiment and the results seem to bear out Hieronymus’ claims. I am not the defender of radionics I simply report that my unbiased experiments “appear” to concur with the claims of Hieronymus. The undertone of hysteria in some of these replies is almost palpable. I am by no means the only one who can build a working machine, but if it is not built to Hieronymus specifications as very few are then they cannot be expected to work. We all of course have the option to do our own research. I offer mine on this forum to anyone who might engage in such research as part of the body of data they might reffer to. As for miracle soap, this an example of a quack who is using eloptic theory for profit, not the improvement of the human condition. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/62 "2009-05-19T02:44:12Z")
If you can’t build the machine from the information in the patent, then the patent was fraudulent. A patent is required to disclose exactly how to duplicate the invention. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/63 "2009-05-19T03:35:38Z")
> [@RevSteve](#): > > If by different frames of refferance you mean that time passes differently for the crew of a relativistic spacecraft, then perhaps you have a point but they still end up in the future. Everyone in every reference frame feels that they are moving into the future at one second per second. When you compare clocks in such a case they will not match. That is time dilation, but not time travel under any scientific sense. > [@](#): > > I do not own the copyrights to the material, Bill Jensen does I cannot post it without his permission. He sells the material for a very reasonable price, you can find him on the web. If you own a working model of a machine you can conduct experiments with it or allow anyone else to do so without any regard to any copyrights. > [@](#): > > In 1949 the patent office did in fact demanded that Hieronymus prove his claims even though they may no longer do this. The Patent Office stopped required working models of patents in 1880, except of course for perpetual motions machines knowing that this is an impossible hurdle. I realize Bill Jensen makes this claim, but I have not found any citation as to when, where, or how this took place. Can you provide a cite not made by Jensen? > [@](#): > > The undertone of hysteria in some of these replies is almost palpable. I am by no means the only one who can build a working machine, but if it is not built to Hieronymus specifications as very few are then they cannot be expected to work. The patent was a fraud. Who says so? [Bill Jensen](http://www.wdjensen123.com/hieronymus/CDSale.htm). > [@](#): > > In addition, I was able to find and contact a gentleman that was able to get Hieronymus to agree to disclose all the details of construction that he left out of the patent to protect his machine. > [@RevSteve](#): > > We all of course have the option to do our own research. I offer mine on this forum to anyone who might engage in such research as part of the body of data they might refer to. But you haven’t given us any research. None at all. I’ve checked your posts. You’ve defended the machine but haven’t even stated what it will do or how you know that. [Here](http://www.svpvril.com/Hier.html) is a long interview with Hieronymus, taken of course from Analog. It is a wonder, containing probably two dozen different varieties of crackpot science. I defy anyone to read it and come away with a belief in this man’s science. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/64 "2009-05-19T05:01:58Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Everyone in every reference frame feels that they are moving into the future at one second per second. When you compare clocks in such a case they will not match. That is time dilation, but not time travel under any scientific sense. You’re simply wrong about this, and I don’t understand what you mean bringing ‘science’ into this. How do you expect time travel SHOULD work? The time traveler feels 10 minutes pass while his world sees 100 years. That’s how it’s depicted in any movie that depicts travel into the future. How can it possibly be another way?? 😕 It’s identical to time dilation. (Seriously? “not time travel under any scientific sense”? Wth is “scientific” time travel?) ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/65 "2009-05-19T06:12:13Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > You’re simply wrong about this, and I don’t understand what you mean bringing ‘science’ into this. How do you expect time travel SHOULD work? The time traveler feels 10 minutes pass while his world sees 100 years. That’s how it’s depicted in any movie that depicts travel into the future. How can it possibly be another way?? 😕 It’s identical to time dilation. I agree that time dilation is not really in the same league as time travel as people normally think of it. I mean, you can call just living your life time travel as you travel into the future at a fairly constant rate. Speeding it up or slowing it down slightly is not in the same league as reversing it or being able to travel to any point at will. Movies typically depict time travel as a kind of chronological teleportation. The only one I can think of that portrays it in the way you mention is The Time Machine, but even in that case it’s able to reverse time, something that is not in any way within the scope of time dilation. Time dilation can’t even slow down time, since we are already traveling slow enough to avoid most relativistic effects. The best we can do is travel into the future a little bit faster than our companions. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/66 "2009-05-19T08:21:13Z")
Time is eternal, there is no speed or slow, only constant. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/67 "2009-05-19T12:35:28Z")
If you leave details of your invention out of your patent, then the patent is invalid. If you want to keep your invention secret you can’t have a patent, if you want a patent you can’t keep your invention secret. If what you say is true, that you can’t build a working machine from the patent specifications then the patent is worthless. The reason cranks bring up patents is to prove that the machine actually works, otherwise why would the PTO have granted a patent? But if the machine \*as patented \*doesn’t actually work then the patent doesn’t prove anything except that the patent was granted by mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/68 "2009-05-19T16:23:15Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > You’re simply wrong about this, and I don’t understand what you mean bringing ‘science’ into this. How do you expect time travel SHOULD work? The time traveler feels 10 minutes pass while his world sees 100 years. That’s how it’s depicted in any movie that depicts travel into the future. How can it possibly be another way?? 😕 It’s identical to time dilation. > > (Seriously? “not time travel under any scientific sense”? Wth is “scientific” time travel?) All movies are wrong. Oddly, [the link that RevSteve gave](http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Why+faster+than+light+implies+back+in+time&lastnode_id=811453&searchy=search) talks about real time travel in special relativity. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/69 "2009-05-19T17:34:52Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > talks about real time travel in special relativity. Special relativity does NOT allow time travel! Time dilation caused by speed is an ephemeral effect, sort of like an optical illusion. It works both ways. If you see someone in a rocket, you see them slow down. Yet they see you slowed down too. Permanent time dilation is only the result of the gravitational fields (general relativity). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/70 "2009-05-19T20:01:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you leave details of your invention out of your patent, then the patent is invalid. If you want to keep your invention secret you can’t have a patent, if you want a patent you can’t keep your invention secret. > > If what you say is true, that you can’t build a working machine from the patent specifications then the patent is worthless. The reason cranks bring up patents is to prove that the machine actually works, otherwise why would the PTO have granted a patent? But if the machine \*as patented \*doesn’t actually work then the patent doesn’t prove anything except that the patent was granted by mistake. And if the machine doesn’t work then the patent is effectively worthless, and it is a moot point. I have four patents, and I find it extremely unlikely that the examiner could have found flaws in them. These days they don’t even seem to make a big effort to find prior art. That a patent has been granted for a machine tells us nothing about whether it actually works. I doubt the situation was much different in 1949. If I have time, I’ll look up some articles on this in my Astounding collection and post some cites. I remember Campbell mentioning it in the '60s, but this was after he had moved on to other crackpottery - and he might have rejected it, though I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/71 "2009-05-19T21:54:18Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Special relativity does NOT allow time travel! Time dilation caused by speed is an ephemeral effect, sort of like an optical illusion. It works both ways. If you see someone in a rocket, you see them slow down. Yet they see you slowed down too. > > Permanent time dilation is only the result of the gravitational fields (general relativity). Time dilation is a product of general relativity, while the consequences of faster-than-light travel are from special relativity. That’s because they’re two entirely separate concepts. Time dilation is not time travel in any relativity. The terms are used differently. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/72 "2009-05-20T01:13:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I have four patents, and I find it extremely unlikely that the examiner could have found flaws in them. These days they don’t even seem to make a big effort to find prior art. > . If I recall correctly, something like roughly HALF of all patents that applied for are granted. Given how many crackpots and wishful thinkers that apply for the things, something tells me the patent office review process is rather minimal at best. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/73 "2009-05-20T01:55:26Z")
As was explained to me in another thread, the patent office just grants anything to anyone and lets the courts and lawyers sort it out whenever anybody has a problem. What a system. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/74 "2009-05-20T01:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] Special relativity does NOT allow time travel! Time dilation caused by speed is an ephemeral effect, sort of like an optical illusion. It works both ways. If you see someone in a rocket, you see them slow down. Yet they see you slowed down too. Permanent time dilation is only the result of the gravitational fields (general relativity). [/QUOTE] > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Time dilation is a product of general relativity, while the consequences of faster-than-light travel are from special relativity. That’s because they’re two entirely separate concepts. Time dilation is not time travel in any relativity. The terms are used differently. However, time dilation is a consequence of relative motion, of acceleration, and of gravitational fields. You can calculate the time dilation due to any combination of those three factors using special relativity (by using the principle of equivalence, the effect of gravity can be calculated by using the equivalent acceleration), or you can calculate it using general relativity - but it’s harder. Either way, you’ll get the same answer (see [Time dilation - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation)) Time dilation is not an illusion - though a clock on a rocket appears to the Earth-bound observer to slow by the same amount that the Earth-bound clock appears to the rocket’s observer to slow, if the rocket turns around and returns to Earth, its clock will be behind the Earth’s clock. If you want to call this “time travel” because in one day of rocket time the rocket has reached the Earth time of one day plus epsilon, you’re welcome to. Anyway, science’s rapid acceptance of relativity shows that there’s very little tendency to suppress even very radical ideas. If scientists scoff at the Hieronmous machine, it’s probably because there’s nothing there. ---
**Author:** ![RevSteve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@RevSteve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RevSteve)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/75 "2009-05-21T00:18:06Z")
[http://www.wdjensen123.com/hieronymus/Plans.htm](http://www.wdjensen123.com/hieronymus/Plans.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/76 "2009-05-21T09:16:42Z")
But that’s even worse for your case. You mean that the plans have been widely available for a while and this machine has made such an impact that I’ve never heard of it? That does not speak well for its verification by independent, knowledgeable critics. From a page linked on RevSteve’s link above: “The Anapathic machine is a very, very rare Hieronymus invented machine that automatically scans a witness patient’s disease rates, and charges each rate in turn into a reagent vial. I have analyzed an original Hieronymus Anapathic instrument. There is no need to get a stick to get it to work for healing people or animals. Then the machine transmits the healing effects of the scan to a remote patient. Or they can ingest the potion, but it often precipitates a crisis for 2 days, as all the diseases and ill-adjustments are corrected. It is for removing these rates, and all the junk rates, so that if you want, you can then only need treat the major diseases after the Anapathic, with the Medical Analyzer. The other Anapathic for sale on the web, has nothing to do with this machine invented by Hieronymus. It is made nowhere else.” Not only was it authentic scientific frontier gibberish, but it expresses a courage of unsupported convictions little seen in this day and age. ---
**Author:** ![RevSteve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@RevSteve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RevSteve)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/77 "2009-05-21T16:33:42Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > But that’s even worse for your case. You mean that the plans have been widely available for a while and this machine has made such an impact that I’ve never heard of it? That does not speak well for its verification by independent, knowledgeable critics. > > From a page linked on RevSteve’s link above: > > “The Anapathic machine is a very, very rare Hieronymus invented machine that automatically scans a witness patient’s disease rates, and charges each rate in turn into a reagent vial. I have analyzed an original Hieronymus Anapathic instrument. There is no need to get a stick to get it to work for healing people or animals. Then the machine transmits the healing effects of the scan to a remote patient. Or they can ingest the potion, but it often precipitates a crisis for 2 days, as all the diseases and ill-adjustments are corrected. It is for removing these rates, and all the junk rates, so that if you want, you can then only need treat the major diseases after the Anapathic, with the Medical Analyzer. The other Anapathic for sale on the web, has nothing to do with this machine invented by Hieronymus. It is made nowhere else.” > Not only was it authentic scientific frontier gibberish, but it expresses a courage of unsupported convictions little seen in this day and age. You mean things like frame dragging and the geodetic effect which was only recently proven by gravity probe B? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/78 "2009-05-21T17:26:42Z")
> [@RevSteve](#): > > You mean things like frame dragging and the geodetic effect which was only recently proven by gravity probe B? You mean the stuff that’s peer-reviewed and published? > **[Gravity Probe B Scientific Papers](http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/sci_papers/index.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/79 "2009-05-21T17:44:32Z")
> [@RevSteve](#): > > You mean things like frame dragging and the geodetic effect which was only recently proven by gravity probe B? I admit I don’t know what those are, but no, I am talking about the quote I posted. “automatically scans a witness patient’s disease rates, and charges each rate in turn into a reagent vial.” The disease rate? What? And it charges this rate into a vial? WHAT? “'There is no need to get a stick to get it to work for healing people or animals.” That’s either complete gibberish or one of the worst explanations I’ve ever read. “Then the machine transmits the healing effects of the scan to a remote patient.” It can heal people BY REMOTE CONTROL? “Or they can ingest the potion, but it often precipitates a crisis for 2 days, as all the diseases and ill-adjustments are corrected.”’ So it cures anything, at a distance? “It is for removing these rates, and all the junk rates…” Having a nurse practitioner for a mother does not make me a medical expert, but I’ve never heard of this kind of terminology. If you can get Qadgop the Mercotan or Chief Pedant to back you up, I’ll believe it, but I seriously doubt that has real meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418/80 "2009-05-21T17:55:05Z")
Oh: The quote about the “authentic scientific frontier gibberish” is a play on the quote from “Blazing Saddles”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-hieronymous-machine/495418.md?page=5)