# What was a Mycenean "Knight?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109 "2016-06-23T02:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/41 "2016-06-24T17:29:37Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The question I guess would be more does Homer refer to anyone _other_ than Nestor as a knight. Granted that Nestor’s got the horsey association. But do other characters get labeled with the same term in a more general way. > > So your actual homework is to go through all of that work in the original Homeric Greek, line by line, until you can give us all a definitive answer as to usage patterns. Or, you know, just forget about it and have a mimosa instead :D. There are parts where the translator refers to other “knights” going to and fro on the battlefield, but thus far Nestor is the only named character I’ve noticed has this association. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/42 "2016-06-24T17:54:15Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > There are parts where the translator refers to other “knights” going to and fro on the battlefield, That sounds like a general descriptor then, which 8th century audiences would likely have seen as class-related. > [@](#): > > but thus far Nestor is the only named character I’ve noticed has this association. But this exclusivity on the other hand might mean that it was specific epithet like **Martian Bigfoot** hypothesized. So we might be dealing with multiple meanings and of course we might also be dealing with different words all being translated as “knight” that Homer ( or whoever ) intended to be quite distinct. And I’m afraid my own Homeric Greek is quite, _ahem_, rusty ;). ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/43 "2016-06-24T18:27:40Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The question I guess would be more does Homer refer to anyone _other_ than Nestor as a knight. Granted that Nestor’s got the horsey association. But do other characters get labeled with the same term in a more general way. > [@Chihuahua](#): > > There are parts where the translator refers to other “knights” going to and fro on the battlefield, but thus far Nestor is the only named character I’ve noticed has this association. OK, let’s do this thing. From [book IV](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.4.iv.html): > [@](#): > > He placed his knights with their chariots and horses in the front rank […] The relevant word in [Greek](https://books.google.no/books?id=B1fLTKAAoAgC&pg=PT1763&lpg=PT1763&dq=%CE%9D%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%84%CF%89%CF%81+%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%BF%CF%82+%E1%BC%94%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%BD%CE%B5+%CE%93%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%AE%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82&source=bl&ots=eYwhz1NN-K&sig=lmPOfZn3zMHx3nkwgLaYICzx-tc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqwu-UuMDNAhWFQpoKHW_DCHYQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=4%3A297&f=false): ἱππῆας. That’s “horsemen”. Another one, from [book V:](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.5.v.html) > [@](#): > > On this the son of Lycaon shouted in triumph, “Knights Trojans, come on” […] Relevant phrase in [Greek](https://books.google.no/books?id=B1fLTKAAoAgC&pg=PT1763&lpg=PT1763&dq=%CE%9D%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%84%CF%89%CF%81+%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%BF%CF%82+%E1%BC%94%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%BD%CE%B5+%CE%93%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%AE%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82&source=bl&ots=eYwhz1NN-K&sig=lmPOfZn3zMHx3nkwgLaYICzx-tc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqwu-UuMDNAhWFQpoKHW_DCHYQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=5%3A102&f=false): κέντορες ἵππων. That’s “drivers/goaders of horses”. Seems like a collective epithet. Hey, here’s a good one - another named character referred to as “knight”, from [book XVI](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.16.xvi.html): > [@](#): > > Then, O knight Patroclus, with a deep sigh you answered, "Achilles, son of Peleus, foremost champion of the Achaeans, do not be angry […] Word in [Greek](https://books.google.no/books?id=B1fLTKAAoAgC&pg=PT1763&lpg=PT1763&dq=%CE%9D%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%84%CF%89%CF%81+%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%BF%CF%82+%E1%BC%94%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%BD%CE%B5+%CE%93%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%AE%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82&source=bl&ots=eYwhz1NN-K&sig=lmPOfZn3zMHx3nkwgLaYICzx-tc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqwu-UuMDNAhWFQpoKHW_DCHYQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=16%3A20&f=false): ἱππεῦ. “Horseman.” OK, one more “knights”, plural, [book IV](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.4.iv.html) again: > [@](#): > > I was then young, and now I am old; still I can go with my knights and give them that counsel which old men have a right to give. [Greek](https://books.google.no/books?id=B1fLTKAAoAgC&pg=PT1763&lpg=PT1763&dq=%CE%9D%CE%AD%CF%83%CF%84%CF%89%CF%81+%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CE%BF%CF%82+%E1%BC%94%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%BD%CE%B5+%CE%93%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%AE%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82&source=bl&ots=eYwhz1NN-K&sig=lmPOfZn3zMHx3nkwgLaYICzx-tc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqwu-UuMDNAhWFQpoKHW_DCHYQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=4%3A322&f=false): ἱππεῦσι. Again, horsemen. I’m actually not seeing that many more knights in this translation (but if anyone else wants to dick around with it, be my guest). They seem to cluster around books IV and V, mostly. And I don’t see how any of this shows anything other than 1) there are horsemen and charioteers in the war, and 2) “horseman” or “driver of horses” can be used as epithets. I’m not seeing any reference to class structure. Or rather: I don’t mean that dudes with horses and chariots weren’t higher on the pecking order than poor schlubs on foot. I would assume that they were, it only stands to reason. But I don’t see it referencing _a_ class here, as such, like the later Hippeis class. And I don’t see it having anything to do with more modern knights. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/44 "2016-06-24T19:10:21Z")
Is it me, or is “driver of horses” a much more evocative epithet than “knight”? More literal translations give you that nice Bronze Age feel. You wouldn’t want to be reading the Bible and hear about Pharaoh’s knights drowning in the Red Sea, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/45 "2016-06-24T20:28:31Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Or rather: I don’t mean that dudes with horses and chariots weren’t higher on the pecking order than poor schlubs on foot. I would assume that they were, it only stands to reason. But I don’t see it referencing _a_ class here, as such, like the later Hippeis class. And I don’t see it having anything to do with more modern knights. Oh I never thought it was explicit, just implied. Even the Mycenaean charioteers who weren’t royalty were as you say on a higher average economic pecking order than infantry dross. And any description would ( you would think ) _imply_ class structure to 8th century readers simply by the fact of referring to them as horsemen. So, pretty much… > [@Chihuahua](#): > > In these contexts, it essentially means the same thing: Any wealthy and well armed warrior qualifies as a “knight” even if their society is not strictly analogous to feudal European hierarchy. And that’s about the same context as a medieval European knight. One can be a knight and a king, or one can be a knight and own a few hundred acres. But there was always a certain economic threshold to get there. Knight here when used generally would seem to just be generic for “well equipped horseman.” ETA: Thanks for taking the time to poke into the Greek :). ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/46 "2016-06-24T21:00:26Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Oh I never thought it was explicit, just implied. Even the Mycenaean charioteers who weren’t royalty were as you say on a higher average economic pecking order than infantry dross. And any description would ( you would think ) _imply_ class structure to 8th century readers simply by the fact of referring to them as horsemen. So, pretty much… Yeah, I think you’re right. An association with horses would imply aristocracy or nobility to the original audience in a way that doesn’t necessarily come across readily in a modern translation. So, I suppose that’s the reason for using a term like “knight”. Otherwise, the reader might miss that connotation. (I still don’t think “knight” is all that awesome a translation, though. I’ll work on it. ;)) Homer certainly isn’t calling Hector a farm hand on the ranch when he says (spoiler alert): “And so they buried Hector, the tamer of horses.” (Which, BTW, I think is just about the most beautiful and evocative little line I’ve ever read. Especially that particular translation. Maybe that’s just me, though.) There’s some nobility implied. Same with other horsey phrases. Philip or Phílippos, “horse-loving”, is, of course, a Greek royal name. Alexander the Great’s dad was Philip II of Macedon, for instance. It implies “noble”. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/47 "2016-06-24T21:28:35Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Homer certainly isn’t calling Hector a farm hand on the ranch when he says (spoiler alert): “And so they buried Hector, the tamer of horses.” OK, now I want a translation of The Iliad which renders κέντορες ἵππων and ἱππεῦ and so forth as “cowboys”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/48 "2016-06-24T21:33:07Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > OK, now I want a translation of The Iliad which renders κέντορες ἵππων and ἱππεῦ and so forth as “cowboys”. 😃 “Hector, the cowboy”. I love it. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/49 "2016-06-24T22:02:44Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > In my mind, a “knight” is a Western European nobleman who is wealthy enough to possess quality weapons, armor, horses, and the training to use them. Why not call him a soldier ? Well suppose I had a new recruit to my army. He’s from a distant farm, and that farm has been lost and his family dead, he wants revenge, he says. Suppose I had a spare suit of armour (leathers at the time), shield (leather on wood?) and set of sword,spear,dagger,hammer,etc Do I just give the weapeons and armour ? Will that make him a knight ? 1. he might just run away ,selll the weapons, and buy himself a farm , or “right” to work one, somewhere. 2. Whats more important than a sword and a shiny suit ? Knowledge and people skills. Ability to draw the mud map and talk about the plan… ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/50 "2016-06-24T22:03:54Z")
Okay … There are two guys on a chariot. The driver and the spear thrower. Known that for a while. I had assumed that the spearman had the higher status. The driver was a tad above a generic foot soldier. But I’m getting the sense that this is wrong. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/51 "2016-06-24T23:50:07Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I had assumed that the spearman had the higher status. The driver was a tad above a generic foot soldier. > > But I’m getting the sense that this is wrong. Is it? Both, potentially. We don’t know a great deal about how chariot armies actually fought at all. Extensive written records are pretty scarce during the era when chariots were heavily involved in warfare, and given the iffy accuracy of depictions of battles, it’s pretty unclear. Probably the best description we have was of the pre-Roman British tribes. In this case, the explanation for their fighting style implies that the guy throwing javelins, driving the chariot, and dismounting to rush into melee might all be the same guy. Much like a horse, you only needed one hand on the reins. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/52 "2016-06-25T08:19:06Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > Suppose I had a spare suit of armour (leathers at the time), Not [necessarily](http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm). It [might](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendra_panoply) be more [toothsome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar%27s_tusk_helmet) than that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/53 "2016-06-25T08:24:04Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I had assumed that the spearman had the higher status. The driver was a tad above a generic foot soldier. More like the driver was also a noble, more like a squire - or at any rate, a [named character](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automedon). But yes, Achilles for one didn’t drive his own chariot. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/54 "2016-06-25T08:34:05Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > Yes, I’m quite sure the lord was usually present in the tower where he lived and would help defend it if necessary. These things weren’t just thrown up anywhere, they covered strategic locations and served as a projection of power and that’s not a job they would just hand out to any old cripple they could find. Present, yes. But not _the watchman_! They’re completely different jobs! And yes, the “old cripples” were given that job. Not “any old cripple they could find” because you’re making it sound as if a serious job was handled via the Beggar’s Guild. Being crippled doesn’t diminish someone except in physical ability: a man could be unable to do jobs requiring strength, both arms or two good legs and be perfectly capable of watching the horizon and raising an alert. Do you expect the CEO to be watching camera feed? > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Then there were the noble orders of Aztec warriors encountered by Spaniards during the Conquest. > > Some wore eagle costumes–the Spaniards called them _caballeros águilas_–Eagle Knights. Those in jaguar costumes were called _caballeros tigres_–Tiger(!) Knights. (My Spanish is bad enough; I won’t attempt the Nahuatl.) > > Modern scholars usually substitute warriors/_guerreros_. But, even if it was obvious to Cortez’s men that these warriors had no horses–they considered them knights. In the meaning of lower noble caste, yes. As you say, not in the meaning of _caballero en su caballo_ (horseman/rider atop his horse), nor were they knighted… but then, by that time the Spaniards didn’t get knighted either. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/55 "2016-06-25T12:47:53Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > OK, now I want a translation of The Iliad which renders κέντορες ἵππων and ἱππεῦ and so forth as “cowboys”. I’ve noticed some translations of Greek comedies will write the Spartan characters with southern hillbilly accents. I think it is supposed to suggest that the Spartans were foreign and a bunch of slack jawed yokels compared to the Athenians (who were the original audience). It is incredibly obnoxious to read precisely because it is so artificial. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/56 "2016-06-25T16:36:32Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Present, yes. > > But not _the watchman_! They’re completely different jobs! And yes, the “old cripples” were given that job. Not “any old cripple they could find” because you’re making it sound as if a serious job was handled via the Beggar’s Guild. Being crippled doesn’t diminish someone except in physical ability: a man could be unable to do jobs requiring strength, both arms or two good legs and be perfectly capable of watching the horizon and raising an alert. > > Do you expect the CEO to be watching camera feed? Right, I’m sure the lord would pick only the finest cripples for his personal household guards. I guess this is part of the “medieval society was just like today and equal opportunity was totally a thing” fantasy. Ech. I’m done talking to you. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/57 "2016-06-25T20:41:56Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > Right, I’m sure the lord would pick only the finest cripples for his personal household guards. I guess this is part of the “medieval society was just like today and equal opportunity was totally a thing” fantasy. Ech. I’m done talking to you. That’s not…all that unlikely. If you’ve got somebody who, through age or injury, can’t effectively fight on the battlefield anymore, he can still serve as a lookout in a watchtower. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/58 "2016-06-27T13:50:18Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Both, potentially. > > We don’t know a great deal about how chariot armies actually fought at all. Extensive written records are pretty scarce during the era when chariots were heavily involved in warfare, and given the iffy accuracy of depictions of battles, it’s pretty unclear. Probably the best description we have was of the pre-Roman British tribes. In this case, the explanation for their fighting style implies that the guy throwing javelins, driving the chariot, and dismounting to rush into melee might all be the same guy. Much like a horse, you only needed one hand on the reins. From the visual depictions combined with what written accounts exist, it would appear that there were at least three different ways to fight using chariots - maybe more. 1. In most of the ME, chariots were basically platforms for nobles to shoot arrows from: the driver was definitely necessary - unlike a horse, you can’t really steer a chariot with leg-pressure, so you need a driver when shooting a bow. 2. Some charioteers appear to have used long lances to spear enemies. 3. Some used the throw javelins - leap off and engage on foot model. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/59 "2016-06-27T14:09:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > But not _the watchman_! They’re completely different jobs! And yes, the “old cripples” were given that job. I used to be a knight like you, but then I took a sling stone to the knee. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/60 "2016-06-27T14:42:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > From the visual depictions combined with what written accounts exist, it would appear that there were at least three different ways to fight using chariots - maybe more. I can think of [one more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythed_chariot) that doesn’t need a separate driver (post-Mycenaean, though). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109.md?page=4)