# What was a Mycenean "Knight?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109 "2016-06-23T02:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/61 "2016-06-29T01:53:40Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean. The Iliad is full of passages describing one person driving a chariot while the passenger throws spears or fires a bow. And Nestor certainly fights from a chariot. For instance, [in Book VIII](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2199/2199-h/2199-h.htm), one of the horses drawing his chariot gets killed: > > “Idomeneus dared not stay nor yet Agamemnon, nor did the two Ajaxes, servants of Mars, hold their ground. Nestor knight of Gerene alone stood firm, bulwark of the Achaeans, not of his own will, but one of his horses was disabled. Alexandrus husband of lovely Helen had hit it with an arrow just on the top of its head where the mane begins to grow away from the skull, a very deadly place. The horse bounded in his anguish as the arrow pierced his brain, and his struggles threw others into confusion. The old man instantly began cutting the traces with his sword, but Hector’s fleet horses bore down upon him through the rout with their bold charioteer, even Hector himself, and the old man would have perished there and then had not Diomed been quick to mark, and with a loud cry called Ulysses to help him.” > > If you’re talking about the real-life Nestor (if he even existed), then all bets are off. No, I’m certainly not talking about an historical Nestor. But even in your account, Nestor is not fighting from his chariot, he’s riding it to the battle. I’m fairly sure Nestor’s kill count in the entire Illiad is a goose egg. He’s an old man, whose advice is markedly outdated by recommending bold chariot manuevers. In the battle in Book 8 which you refer to, Diomedes does do a hell of a lot of fighting from a chariot and kills the odd Trojan prince or two, but generally, we see chariots as a conveyance to battle and a place to throw a spear from (usually to kill the charioteer of some other hero) before dropping down and fighting from the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/62 "2016-06-29T14:31:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I can think of [one more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythed_chariot) that doesn’t need a separate driver (post-Mycenaean, though). I’ve certainly read enough accounts of scythed chariots to believe they existed, but I have great difficulty in understanding how they were supposed to work, particularly in charging down at a line of infantry, as in this account: > [@](#): > > The soldiers had got into the habit of collecting their supplies carelessly and without taking precautions. There was one occasion when Pharnabazus, with 2 scythed chariots and about 400 cavalry, came on them when they were scattered all over the plain. When the Greeks saw him bearing down on them, they ran to join up with each other, about 700 altogether; but Pharnabazus did not waste time. Putting the chariots in front, and following behind them himself with the cavalry, he ordered a charge. The chariots dashing into the Greek ranks, broke up their close formation, and the cavalry soon cut down about a hundred men. The rest fled and took refuge with Agesilaus, who happened to be close at hand with the hoplites. The blades as I understand it extended from the axles of the chariot itself, which was dragged behind the horses. They did not project in front of the horses. How were the blades going to come into contact with a line of infantry? The horses would have to pass through the line to cut up the men on either side, or swerve at just the right moment to pass along the line - but the infantrymen’s spears would outrange a scythe blade by far. The weapon seems better suited to threatening cavalry in open formation. Also, if the blades hit something like a man or horse, particularly at speed, what would happen to the chariot? It seems to me likely it would flip, or at least, go dangerously out of control. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/63 "2016-06-29T15:03:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The blades as I understand it extended from the axles of the chariot itself, which was dragged behind the horses. They did not project in front of the horses. How were the blades going to come into contact with a line of infantry? The horses would have to pass through the line to cut up the men on either side, or swerve at just the right moment to pass along the line - but the infantrymen’s spears would outrange a scythe blade by far. The best defence against a scythe chariot was just to get out of its way, then close ranks behind it again. And people tend to get out of the way when a chariot charges at them - poking the horses with spears would sort-of work, but then you’ve got inertia barrelling 1 tone of dead horse and chariot into your front rank. and maintaining shield wall integrity was the be-all-and-end-all of ancient battles. The idea, as I understand it, is for the scythe chariot to open up the hole in the ranks, and the cavalry _immediately behind it_ to take advantage of that hole. Ever seen sharks or dolphins attack a school of sardines? > [@](#): > > Also, if the blades hit something like a man or horse, particularly at speed, what would happen to the chariot? It seems to me likely it would flip, or at least, go dangerously out of control. I think this has been covered quite well by the show Da Vinci’s Machines. Granted, they were testing Da Vinci’s rotating blade design not the axle-mounted ones, but the same principles apply - shit is going to get chopped up good, and the chariot is going to keep barrelling along. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/64 "2016-06-29T15:29:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The best defence against a scythe chariot was just to get out of its way, then close ranks behind it again. And people tend to get out of the way when a chariot charges at them - poking the horses with spears would sort-of work, but then you’ve got inertia barrelling 1 tone of dead horse and chariot into your front rank. and maintaining shield wall integrity was the be-all-and-end-all of ancient battles. > > The idea, as I understand it, is for the scythe chariot to open up the hole in the ranks, and the cavalry _immediately behind it_ to take advantage of that hole. Ever seen sharks or dolphins attack a school of sardines? This is subject to the usual problem of heavy cavalry - its a game of chicken between the infantry and the cavalry. If the infantry stands firm, the cavalry may have problems getting the horses to cooperate in the ‘becoming a one ton dead missile’ plan. However, green infantry, or untrained infantry, will run, turning their backs on the cavalry - who will then cut them down with impunity. Perhaps the real purpose of the scythed chariot was as a morale-killer: the idea was that this thing was simply more frightening to infantry, making it more likely they would run. Otherwise, what’s the difference between a scythed chariot and a non-scythed one? If the threat was the horses barreling into them, either would do. The blades would I suppose widen the ‘hole’ necessary to let them through, though. > [@](#): > > I think this has been covered quite well by the show Da Vinci’s Machines. Granted, they were testing Da Vinci’s rotating blade design not the axle-mounted ones, but the same principles apply - shit is going to get chopped up good, and the chariot is going to keep barrelling along. I admit, I haven’t seen the show. Strikes me that something mounted on one side of an axle suddenly hitting something relatively solid would have a rather destabilizing effect, though obviously it would do a lot of damage to whatever it hit. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/65 "2016-06-29T15:48:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I admit, I haven’t seen the show. Strikes me that something mounted on one side of an axle suddenly hitting something relatively solid would have a rather destabilizing effect, though obviously it would do a lot of damage to whatever it hit. “You should see the other guy.” If they were break away and easy to replace, you withdraw from the fray and replace them. I’ve read that during the Napoleonic Wars, it was difficult to make a horse charge into a group of people. > [@horse](#): > > “Damn, you could hurt somebody!” ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/66 "2016-06-29T16:57:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This is subject to the usual problem of heavy cavalry - its a game of chicken between the infantry and the cavalry. If the infantry stands firm, the cavalry may have problems getting the horses to cooperate in the ‘becoming a one ton dead missile’ plan. However, green infantry, or untrained infantry, will run, turning their backs on the cavalry - who will then cut them down with impunity. Right. Although I wouldn’t describe the “one ton dead missile” part as a “plan”, exactly. Turning your horses into kamikaze kebab in a frontal charge isn’t really how you \*want \*to use your cavalry. If you do attempt a direct charge, presumably you don’t expect it to be suicidal. Anyway, for the most part, I would think that scythed chariots, like cavalry, would have been better used for flanking moves. As always, if you can get alongside or in the rear of a formation, at least you don’t have a wall of pointy objects in your face. > [@](#): > > Perhaps the real purpose of the scythed chariot was as a morale-killer: the idea was that this thing was simply more frightening to infantry, making it more likely they would run. I agree. I think you’d want to use them primarily as anti-morale and anti-cohesion weapons. Although, actually being seen scything some legs off would presumably have been part of the shock and awe aspect, so it’s not just about motoring around looking scary. [Here](http://www.livius.org/sources/content/appian/appian-the-mithridatic-wars/appian-the-mithridatic-wars-4/#19) is Appian’s description from the Battle of the River Amnias in 89 BC: > [@Appian](#): > > At the same time the scythe-bearing chariots made a charge on the Bithynians, cutting some of them in two, and tearing others to pieces. > > The army of Nicomedes was terrified at seeing men cut in halves and still breathing, or mangled in fragments and their parts hanging on the scythes. Overcome rather by the hideousness of the spectacle than by loss of the fight, fear took possession of their ranks. While they were thus thrown into confusion, Archelaus attacked them in front, and Neoptolemus and Arcathias, who had turned about, assailed them in the rear. And, yeah: Yikes! That said, there aren’t many descriptions of scythed chariots ever being all that useful at all, and the above quote seems to be the last mention of them being used to any effect. They remind me a bit of war elephants in this respect: People did use them, and apparently for a long time, so they must have been good for something. And they certainly look cool. Even so, good luck finding many examples of them making a difference, especially against professional and disciplined forces, such as Hellenistic or Roman armies. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/67 "2016-06-29T17:55:29Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Right. Although I wouldn’t describe the “one ton dead missile” part as a “plan”, exactly. Turning your horses into kamikaze kebab in a frontal charge isn’t really how you \*want \*to use your cavalry. If you do attempt a direct charge, presumably you don’t expect it to be suicidal. Heh, true enough. I suspect the “plan” was to have the infantry run. Making the chariot look even scarier would help with that; all the better if it cuts some fellows down gruesomely (though even with historical accounts of them doing exactly that, such as the one you provide, I’m not totally convinced it would work, mechanically speaking: that is, I’m sure it would cut people down gruesomely, but not that the chariot would emerge unscathed. But I could easily be wrong about that). > [@](#): > > Anyway, for the most part, I would think that scythed chariots, like cavalry, would have been better used for flanking moves. As always, if you can get alongside or in the rear of a formation, at least you don’t have a wall of pointy objects in your face. > > I agree. I think you’d want to use them primarily as anti-morale and anti-cohesion weapons. Although, actually being seen scything some legs off would presumably have been part of the shock and awe aspect, so it’s not just about motoring around looking scary. [Here](http://www.livius.org/sources/content/appian/appian-the-mithridatic-wars/appian-the-mithridatic-wars-4/#19) is Appian’s description from the Battle of the River Amnias in 89 BC: > And, yeah: Yikes! > > That said, there aren’t many descriptions of scythed chariots ever being all that useful at all, and the above quote seems to be the last mention of them being used to any effect. They remind me a bit of war elephants in this respect: People did use them, and apparently for a long time, so they must have been good for something. And they certainly look cool. Even so, good luck finding many examples of them making a difference, especially against professional and disciplined forces, such as Hellenistic or Roman armies. That’s what I would suspect. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/68 "2016-06-29T17:56:40Z")
The ancient battle Maximus is thrown into reenacting in the Colosseum in the film _Gladiator_ is the [Battle of Zama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama) and featured scythed chariots meant to take out the Carthaginians, played by Maximus and his troop, who manage to pull the upset. I take it that the guys on chariots are meant to be Scipio Africanus’ Numdian cavalry, who certainly didn’t use chariots at Zama. But it made for a good action scene in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/69 "2016-06-29T18:24:18Z")
I’m sure the directors of real-life Roman gladiatorial spectacles were about as concerned with historical accuracy as are modern day Hollywood movie directors. If that means Abraham Lincoln dual-wielding stinger missiles charging to victory on zebra-back over Adolf Hitler, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/70 "2016-06-29T19:19:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Making the chariot look even scarier would help with that; all the better if it cuts some fellows down gruesomely (though even with historical accounts of them doing exactly that, such as the one you provide, I’m not totally convinced it would work, mechanically speaking: that is, I’m sure it would cut people down gruesomely, but not that the chariot would emerge unscathed. But I could easily be wrong about that). I’m skeptical, too, to be honest. Appian was writing a couple of centuries after the battle he describes, and I don’t think he would have personally seen a scythed chariot in action. He may well have been laying it on a bit thick. I have a hard time picturing one literally cutting a man in half outside of a Hollywood movie. We need the Mythbusters to get on this. I’ll work on bringing Adam and Jamie out of retirement, if you start rounding up volunteers to be phalangite analogues, ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/71 "2016-06-29T19:22:12Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I’m skeptical, too, to be honest. Appian was writing a couple of centuries after the battle he describes, and I don’t think he would have personally seen a scythed chariot in action. He may well have been laying it on a bit thick. I have a hard time picturing one literally cutting a man in half outside of a Hollywood movie. > > We need the Mythbusters to get on this. I’ll work on bringing Adam and Jamie out of retirement, if you start rounding up volunteers to be phalangite analogues, I have some clients from work whom I’d like to volunteer … ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/72 "2016-06-30T16:30:09Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > A _watch_tower might not even have been a permanent construction; they often weren’t occupied year-round. And do you really think that when a tower was indeed occupied and manned year-round, the lord doubled up as watchman? It seems to me those are the beginnings of castles. You see something similar in Castle Stalker (final scene of Holy Grail). Entrance is up a flight of stairs and a left turn to make assault difficult. When the lord got richer, it appears they added a curtain wall and courtyard and this became the keep (Eileen Donan looks like it might be so). So this would be for either a rich Knight or a small Lord, someone with decent land assets to pay for not just a horse and armor but a big rock fortification. I’m guessing plain “Knight” in the medieval tradition was likely the younger brothers and other poorer relatives that managed to cadge enough for the basic horse and arms off their relative who inherited the land holdings. My impression of the Iliad times was that the “kings” or “knights” were simply village leaders. Odysseus, for example seems to be the “owner” of a large spread and mansion/fortification - perhaps more like a clan leader? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/73 "2016-06-30T17:05:05Z")
My opinion re: scythed chariots is this : they were not to slice up infantry blocks by racing sidelong with them, because mechanically that just durn _work_. Trying that would be a good way to flip the thing over because one side gets a lot of resistance while the other doesn’t. And plowing dead on into the infantry ? Even actual heavy cavalry preceded by a long-ass lance would think twice. However, the scythe blades would be a neat idea to prevent light cavalrymen from pulling alongside your zipping chariot for an up close and personal discussion re:their annoyance at your shooting arrows at them and their mates all the time. i.e. while you’re not going to plow into a phalanx at full speed, you _might_ be able to snip a horse’s tendons enough for it to pause. If you consider that cavalrymen at the time did not typically fight with long spears or lances but more often with sabers, short spears and the like ; that would prevent their one counter to “dudes on a chariot, shooting away with wild abandon” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/74 "2016-06-30T17:13:04Z")
ETA : I suppose that could also work against skirmishers/screening infantry, like scattered peltasts/velites and the like. But an honest to Aïsha phalanx or Roman square ? Yeah, no. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/75 "2016-06-30T17:34:06Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Entrance is up a flight of stairs and a left turn to make assault difficult. Doesn’t an upwards left turn favor the attacker? A right handed man facing down the stairway can’t swing his sword. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/76 "2016-06-30T17:42:33Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > My impression of the Iliad times was that the “kings” or “knights” were simply village leaders. Odysseus, for example seems to be the “owner” of a large spread and mansion/fortification - perhaps more like a clan leader? This was my thinking, which I alluded to upthread. Every _basileus_ could be called a “King” in the sense that they are the ruler of their own people and they are not subordinate to any other ruler (eg When Achilles refuses to obey Agamemnon). Yet these “Kings” do not very much resemble later European monarchs. They rule cities or small islands with comparatively tiny populations, and we even see things like Laertes performing manual labor in the fields. It seems to me that they are on par with a mayor or chieftain, and only get called “Kings” because they possess independent sovereignty - no one, not even the _Wanax_, has power over them. Hence my confusion over attempting to transplant Middle European terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/77 "2016-06-30T18:15:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > ETA : I suppose that could also work against skirmishers/screening infantry, like scattered peltasts/velites and the like. This mental image needs some [music](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/78 "2016-06-30T19:39:25Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > This mental image needs some [music](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ). And an accompanying [image](http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40kfanon/images/c/cd/Drive_me_closer_i_want_to_hit_them_with_my_sword.png/revision/latest?cb=20091011115912) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109/79 "2016-06-30T20:06:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And an accompanying [image](http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40kfanon/images/c/cd/Drive_me_closer_i_want_to_hit_them_with_my_sword.png/revision/latest?cb=20091011115912) 🙂 [Readable version](http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40kfanon/images/c/cd/Drive_me_closer_i_want_to_hit_them_with_my_sword.png). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-a-mycenean-knight/758109.md?page=3)