# What was going on before History? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 17, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419 "2015-07-17T15:52:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/1 "2015-07-17T15:52:47Z")
No idea which forum this should go to, so I’ll start it here. Has there been any attempt by a serious writer (scientific, historical, whatever) to investigate what must have been going on the day before **History** started? Do we have any idea exactly when that was? Don’t there continue to be findings of an archaeological type that suggest ever earlier _history_ than was previously known? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/2 "2015-07-17T15:59:42Z")
“History” in a casual archeological context usually means “recorded history”. Stuff where we have documents saying what was going on. Before that is “pre-history” where we have to piece it together via other clues. Arguably, you could put it at the point where humans were making lasting permanent settlements as well (yes, there’s overlap). So before history was pre-history with early civilizations and hunter gatherers and cavemen and dinosaurs and fish climbing out of the sludge. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/3 "2015-07-17T16:02:15Z")
That’s what Prehistory is all about, the time since we, figuratively speaking, came down from the trees until someone had the bright idea of recording stuff in written from and hey presto! we had History ever since then. The interesting thing is that mean prehistory is not a definitive date on the calendar, different cultures started to have recorded history at different stages (or never by themselves and had to wait to be “discovered” to join the club) ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/4 "2015-07-17T16:07:17Z")
I guess I’m curious in general terms about what is supposed to have happened _somewhere_ to make somebody want to write it down in some form? Do we know who ought to get credit for that first writing? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/5 "2015-07-17T16:07:28Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > “History” in a casual archeological context usually means “recorded history”. Stuff where we have documents saying what was going on. Before that is “pre-history” where we have to piece it together via other clues. Arguably, you could put it at the point where humans were making lasting permanent settlements as well (yes, there’s overlap). > > So before history was pre-history with early civilizations and hunter gatherers and cavemen and dinosaurs and fish climbing out of the sludge. I think it’s worth noting that prehistoric man was not necessarily a caveman gnawing on a bone, there were relatively advanced civilizations going on that simply didn’t came up with the concept of writing. Some of the earliest monumental architecture goes as far back, if not more, from the building of the Pyramids of Egypt as the Pyramids are from us today. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/6 "2015-07-17T16:10:36Z")
Yes, **Ale** , that’s the sort of thing I’m curious about. In that long gap of time before the first writings, and well after various means of communication had to have been in play, what were our ancestors doing to further useful information and to pass it along to their offspring? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/7 "2015-07-17T16:15:38Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Yes, **Ale** , that’s the sort of thing I’m curious about. In that long gap of time before the first writings, and well after various means of communication had to have been in play, what were our ancestors doing to further useful information and to pass it along to their offspring? I have a passing interest in archeology, so maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of the origins of writing (at least the very first known one, cuneiform) was an evolutionary progression from simple pictorial markings used in accounting and trade. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/8 "2015-07-17T16:35:23Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > I have a passing interest in archeology, so maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of the origins of writing (at least the very first known one, cuneiform) was an evolutionary progression from simple pictorial markings used in accounting and trade. This agrees with various things I’ve read; and it may go back to records even more primitive than “pictorial markings”. By one article that I read somewhere, the earliest known recorded information may have consisted of a piece of rope with knots, the number of knots supposedly recording the quantity of some transaction. This Wiki article, [Tally Stick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick), doesn’t mention knotted ropes but discusses the similar idea of making notches on a stick to keep account of something. The lede photo shows a Medieval-era one with actual writing of some sort on it, but the lede paragraph notes that primitive tally sticks go back to Paleolithic times. There appears to be some general agreement that the earliest motivations for making records, which ultimately led to the development of writing, had to do with primitive business and commerce. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/9 "2015-07-17T16:39:20Z")
The earliest writing we have is records of stuff like how much wheat was bought and sold, or how many jars of wine. So if you’re wondering what prompted people to start writing stuff down, the answer appears to be “money”. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/10 "2015-07-17T16:41:02Z")
Many scientists believe prehistory was something like this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9woRJ7-mD7Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9woRJ7-mD7Y) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/11 "2015-07-17T16:46:07Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > I think it’s worth noting that prehistoric man was not necessarily a caveman gnawing on a bone, there were relatively advanced civilizations going on that simply didn’t came up with the concept of writing. On top of that, once SOMEONE started writing stuff down, we sort of just entered the “Historical” era as a species. When some explorers from a literate society found some illiterate guys in the jungle, for example, said jungle dwellers weren’t really “prehistoric” people. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/12 "2015-07-17T17:36:15Z")
Pre-History Duh! As has been noted above, plenty was going on before people wrote things down, and more recent people have been trying to deduce what it was. Sometimes they get a boost from the Oral Tradition, or when literate neighbors wrote things down about them, but generally people have been using archaeology to ferret it out. The thing is, when you say “prehistoric”, people think “Cave Men”. But in a lot of the world, written history didn’t start all that long ago. My ancestors came from Poland. The first written records there data from 966 CE (I know, because they made a big deal about the 100 year anniversary back in 1966). You can make all the Polish jokes you want, but if there aren’t any written records before that point, that’s when Written History, by definition, starts. There are a lot of places and people in the same situation. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/13 "2015-07-17T17:41:13Z")
**What was going on before History?** Well, that certainly goes back a ways, and my memory is not so good, but I think right before history came PE. Or lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/14 "2015-07-17T18:13:50Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > The earliest writing we have is records of stuff like how much wheat was bought and sold, or how many jars of wine. So if you’re wondering what prompted people to start writing stuff down, the answer appears to be “money”. What motivated writing seems to have varied from place to place - writing was (as far as we know) independently invented in several places. In some places, the earliest motive was indeed basically “accounting”. Early Sumerian and Mycenaen writings were all about the accounting. In other places though, writing had different origins - in Egypt, it seems, writing originated in political propaganda. The earliest gyphs were names and titles, and the earliest known complete sentence is as follows: > [@](#): > > In Peribsen’s tomb at Abydos, clay seals were found that demonstrate the first complete written sentence in recorded Egyptian history. The inscription reads:[60] > > “The golden one/He of Ombos hath unified/handed over the two realms for/to his son, the king of Lower and Upper Egypt, Peribsen”. > **[Seth-Peribsen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth-Peribsen#Archaeological_evidence)** > > Seth-Peribsen (also known as Ash-Peribsen, Peribsen and Perabsen) is the serekh name of an early Egyptian monarch (pharaoh), who ruled during the Second Dynasty of Egypt (c. 2890 – c. 2686 BC). His chronological position within this dynasty is unknown and it is disputed who ruled both before and after him. The duration of his reign is also unknown. > Peribsen's name is unusual, in that Set, not Horus, was his patron deity. This goes against the Egyptian tradition of a king choosing the falcon-sh... In China, it is different again: the earliest Chinese writings appear to have been used, basically, for divination. The earliest writings were the so-called “oracle bones”: > **[Oracle bone script](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone_script)** > > Oracle bone script is the oldest attested form of written Chinese, dating to the late 2nd millennium BC. Inscriptions were made by carving characters into oracle bones, usually either the shoulder bones of oxen or the plastrons of turtles. The writings themselves mainly record the results of official divinations carried out on behalf of the Late Shang royal family. These divinations took the form of scapulimancy where the oracle bones were exposed to flames, creating patterns of cracks that were... Way these worked was that the person asking the question would write or scratch it onto a bone or turtle shell, and a hot iron rod was then pressed into the bone or shell - and the way it cracked would “answer” the question. > **[Oracle bone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_bone)** > > Oracle bones are pieces of ox scapula and turtle plastron which were used in pyromancy – a form of divination – during the Late Shang period (c. 1250 – c. 1050 BCE) in ancient China. Scapulimancy is the specific term if ox scapulae were used for the divination, plastromancy if turtle plastrons were used. A recent count estimated that there were about 13,000 bones with a total of a little over 130,000 inscriptions in collections in China and some fourteen other countries. > Diviners would submit q... So, writing appears to have had quite different first uses in different places. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/15 "2015-07-17T18:51:01Z")
But note that these are just the writing systems that we have evidence for. We have lots and lots of early Mesopotamian writing because they wrote things on clay bricks, which survive a lot better than sheets of paper or leather or wood. Same with the oracle bones from China. It’s very likely that lots of other things were written down on other materials, it’s just that those materials didn’t survive for thousands of years the way clay, stone, and bone did. This is the same phenomenon that created the idea of the “cave man”. Yes, we’ve found lots of physical evidence of prehistoric humans in caves. But that’s because it was only in caves that the physical evidence survived to be discovered. Very few people in prehistory lived in caves, it’s just that grass huts, skin tents, and wooden houses mostly all rotted away thousands of years ago, while caves and stone buildings endure. Same with cave paintings…any paintings on wood, leather, or exposed stone are long gone. Only paintings deep in caves could survive for thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/16 "2015-07-17T19:14:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But note that these are just the writing systems that we have evidence for. We have lots and lots of early Mesopotamian writing because they wrote things on clay bricks, which survive a lot better than sheets of paper or leather or wood. Same with the oracle bones from China. It’s very likely that lots of other things were written down on other materials, it’s just that those materials didn’t survive for thousands of years the way clay, stone, and bone did. Certainly. But we can only make conclusions as to the purposes of writing based on writing that exists. We cannot come to any conclusions on the basis of writings that no longer exist, other than to admit that what exists isn’t the full story. I would definitely agree there is plenty of evidence that early writing systems suffered from uneven survival. A notable example is Harrapan writings from what is now Indian and Pakistan. All that survives is the symbols on “cylinder seals” carved from hard materials - in all likelihood, there was a whole writing system that generated those seal symbols, but it did not survive, probably because it was written on stuff that was perishable. However, I don’t see that this changes the thesis - that, as far as we know, different peoples appear to have used writing for different things initially. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/17 "2015-07-17T19:18:00Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > My ancestors came from Poland. The first written records there data from 966 CE (I know, because they made a big deal about the 100 year anniversary back in 1966). You can make all the Polish jokes you want Can I make one about not knowing the difference between 100 and 1,000? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-going-on-before-history/725419/18 "2015-07-17T20:22:22Z")
I suppose one could consider cave paintings to be a form of writing. So they might have been saying, “Look at this cool zebra”, or “I am a brave hunter that has slain the mighty zebra.”