# What Was NYC Before? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 27, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488 "2011-05-27T21:13:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/41 "2011-05-31T15:57:46Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > Not in New York, Buster. The history of New York (i.e. the island currently known to some as “Manhattan”) is not one of slow growth where a suburb occasionally annexed. New York is not Omaha. > > The history of New York is a big plan to do huge development by a city planning commission - this would include items to consider, like trash pickup and disposal and transportation and policing and street layout, leisure space fire control, etc., etc. > > When New York decided it was time to develop an area they typically cleared the space of anyone else who was living there, tore down most the homes and laid a new grid. > > The exceptions prove the rule. > > I can’t dispute that Harlem was a functioning town with a long history that became otherwise unexpectedly important due primarily to it’s Metro North stop. > > The rest of those little towns… annexed? Hah! cleared out by a council that undoubtedly saw no need to annex what was already theirs. Cite that this ever happened. > [@samjones](#): > > [THERE WE GO](http://www.library.cornell.edu/Reps/DOCS/nyc1811.htm) > > The Dongan Charter. This was driving me crazy. > > Question answered - New York City has essentially always encompassed the entire island of “New York”. > > Man - you ever read something that just didn’t sound right and you couldn’t think of exactly why. Glad I could get the straight dope on this for y’all. The Dongan Charter was three years after New York County was formed, as given by the previous links. The grid lines were laid down in 1807 or 125 years later. The planning commissions that considered trash pickups and fire controls were decades later than that. You’re confusing and conflating hundreds of years of history to make statements that are wrong by every historical measure. Annexation in New York never worked the way you said, ever, at any time. Are we clear about that yet? ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/42 "2011-05-31T16:05:52Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Cite that this ever happened. Seneca Village, of course. As a single famous instance. There were many more. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Dongan Charter was three years after New York County was formed, as given by the previous links. The grid lines were laid down in 1807 or 125 years later. The planning commissions that considered trash pickups and fire controls were decades later than that. You’re confusing and conflating hundreds of years of history to make statements that are wrong by every historical measure. Annexation in New York never worked the way you said, ever, at any time. Are we clear about that yet? Pfft - if you knew what you were talking about then you would have simply answered the question, The Dongan Charter gave all control over the Island of New York (aka Manhattan) to the City of New York. Period. “Annexation” didn’t happen because you do not annex what you already control. Don’t go getting pissy with me just because you couldn’t manage to answer a simple and straightforward question. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/43 "2011-05-31T17:01:10Z")
So New York City included the entire island of Manhattan in 1686? That’s surprisingly early. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/44 "2011-05-31T17:32:13Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > Seneca Village, of course. As a single famous instance. There were many more. How many times do you have to be told that this has nothing to do with annexation? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/45 "2011-05-31T17:47:14Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Annexation in New York never worked the way you said, ever, at any time. Are we clear about that yet? > [@samjones](#): > > Pfft - if you knew what you were talking about then you would have simply answered the question > [@samjones](#): > > Don’t go getting pissy with me just because you couldn’t manage to answer a simple and straightforward question. [Mod Note] Since this is General Questions and not Great Debates, how about if everyone dials it back a notch? Thank you! No warnings issued. [/Mod Note] ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/46 "2011-05-31T17:50:02Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > How many times do you have to be told that this has nothing to do with annexation? At the friendly request of the moderator I will retract my statement which you can be sure would have taught you a couple of things. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/47 "2011-05-31T19:28:09Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > At the friendly request of the moderator I will retract my statement which you can be sure would have taught you a couple of things. We can only imagine. And just might. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/48 "2011-05-31T19:39:19Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > We can only imagine. And just might. In my imagination the words “eminent domain” are used. But only there, alas. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/49 "2011-05-31T19:57:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So New York City included the entire island of Manhattan in 1686? That’s surprisingly early. I think **Sam** made hi case _As a matter of legal authority_ New York City was coterminous with New York County and Manhattan Island (ignoring ?City Island and other such grace notes) from 1686. Like a number of other cities elsewhere3 in the US later, it annexed (or was given by charter) municipal authority over all land within its county. Development and public services came much later, advancing up the island and incorporating settlements such as Harlem. ?The City of Rome, upstate, has a similar division between legal boundaries and developed area, as does the Village of Speculator. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/50 "2011-05-31T19:58:18Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > In my imagination the words “eminent domain” are used. But only there, alas. These days everything above 96th Street is increasingly becoming knows as Greater Columbia and everything below 14th as the NYUniverse. Mapcase just didn’t read the actual thread to see the many references to annexation… none of them by me. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488/51 "2011-05-31T19:59:56Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I think **Sam** made hi case _As a matter of legal authority_ New York City was coterminous with New York County and Manhattan Island (ignoring ?City Island and other such grace notes) from 1686. Yeah - well - he made his case for the “Manhattan” - i.e. New York Island part of it. He didn’t say no nuthin bout no New York County. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-nyc-before/583488.md?page=2)