# What was really the deal with Bobby Fischer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461 "2009-09-09T19:32:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/21 "2009-09-15T19:22:01Z")
Good Lord! He was a mess, wasn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/22 "2009-09-15T20:03:21Z")
Eh, if he was wearing a hat, he’d look like any number of orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/23 "2009-09-15T20:10:42Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > What can I say, Fischer has a Jewey face. Especially towards the end of his life, he really cranked the Jew-o-meter up to 11. [Here,](http://web.mclink.it/MI4943/tributo/fischer40.jpg) for instance, if he was wearing something other than that denim shirt, he looks straight outta Boro Park. Between this and the “Jewed him down is a compliment, really,” it’s starting to feel like the Augusta National around here. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/24 "2009-09-15T22:37:22Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > … So if you’re born of a German mother, you don’t have to be German? And if your mom’s black, I’m pretty sure you’re black, too. Same with jewish. It’s a culture _and_ a religion. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Also an ethnicity. Sure it’s a culture, religion and ethnicity. But the argument: P1) The children of a jewish mother are Jewish P2) Bobby Fisher’s mother was Jewish C1) Therefore Bobby Fisher is Jewish. is either using only the religious definition of Jewish or incorrect. And I stand behind my argument that if you don’t consider yourself Jewish there’s no reason to accept P1. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/25 "2009-09-15T22:47:59Z")
The children of a german mother are german. The children of an american mother are american. The children of a black mother are black. It does break down with ‘the children of a white mother are white’, but we all know that trick. Bobby’s ethnically jewish. By, not just jewish standards, but german standards, and pretty much every other standard that exists. You’re just treating it as if it were merely a religious option. It’s not just a religious option. It’s a tribe. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/26 "2009-09-15T22:50:19Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > … So if you’re born of a German mother, you don’t have to be German? And if your mom’s black, I’m pretty sure you’re black, too. Same with jewish. It’s a culture _and_ a religion. The OP’s argument was: > [@](#): > > his mother, being 100% Jewish by birth, makes Fischer officially a Jew by birth whether he wants to be one or not. **The Lurker Above** ’s point is that this “officially” a Jew stuff if your mother is a Jew but not your father is meaningless since this doesn’t apply to someone that doesn’t accept this part of Jewish dogma. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/27 "2009-09-15T22:56:21Z")
“Officially” in the sense of, “the official policy of the Jewish religion.” Since there’s no other body which determines whether someone is a Jew or not, I would say that the _most_ authoritative source of who is or isn’t “officially” Jewish is the Jewish law itself. “Officially”, in this case, means, “in theory,” not in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/28 "2009-09-15T23:26:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > “Officially” in the sense of, “the official policy of the Jewish religion.” Since there’s no other body which determines whether someone is a Jew or not, I would say that the _most_ authoritative source of who is or isn’t “officially’ Jewish is the Jewish law itself. 'Officially”, in this case, means, “in theory,” not in practice. But you aren’t “officially” Jewish “in theory” unless you adhere to the policy and believe that policy carries any weight. That was **The Lurker Above** ’s point. You stated: > [@](#): > > Of course, all of this was all the weirder because Fischer himself is a Jew - as if you couldn’t tell by looking at his Jewey face already - his mother, being 100% Jewish by birth, makes Fischer officially a Jew by birth whether he wants to be one or not. Fischer being an official Jew doesn’t make anything weirder unless Fischer bought into the “policy”. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/29 "2009-09-16T03:06:22Z")
You’re still jewish enough for Hitler to kill you if it’s only your dad. I think that’s a good enough definition for the rest of the world. So the Jewish religion is more restrictive than the rest of the world is. And that’s a big deal how? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/30 "2009-09-16T03:08:07Z")
Ethically, he’s Jewish. And practically, he was a self-loathing Jew. Well, that and a complete and utter asshole. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/31 "2009-09-16T03:46:50Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > The children of a german mother are german. > > The children of an american mother are american. > > The children of a black mother are black. > > It does break down with ‘the children of a white mother are white’, but we all know that trick. > > Bobby’s ethnically jewish. By, not just jewish standards, but german standards, and pretty much every other standard that exists. > > You’re just treating it as if it were merely a religious option. It’s not just a religious option. It’s a tribe. The children of a german mother and a non-german father are half german by most accounts. I don’t know what Fischer’s mothers ethnicity was, but his father was not Jewish. That makes him half Jewish, at most. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/32 "2009-09-16T03:56:54Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You’re still jewish enough for Hitler to kill you if it’s only your dad. You sound like my mother. Who was not a genealogy expert. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/33 "2009-09-16T04:37:12Z")
Being Jewish is a lot like being black. One drop is enough for the whole thing, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. They wouldn’t have let him in the country clubs in the 70s, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/34 "2009-09-16T04:50:48Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > ]. Of course, all of this was all the weirder because Fischer himself is a Jew - as ]if you couldn’t tell by looking at his Jewey face already - his mother, being 100% Jewish by birth, makes Fischer officially a Jew by birth whether he wants to be one or not. ? The only issue I have here is that if Fischer himself didn’t want to be considered Jewish then we should respect that. That, and his chess, should be about the only thing we should respect about this unpleasant man. I always saw it as profound, mostly undiagnosed, mental illness. A sad waste to an otherwise brilliant chess player. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/35 "2009-09-16T04:54:38Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Being Jewish is a lot like being black. One drop is enough for the whole thing, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. They wouldn’t have let him in the country clubs in the 70s, you know. Eh? Perhaps but let’s give the nut his due, if he didn’t consider himself Jewish (and I have no idea if he did or not) then he isn’t Jewish from his point of view. Not imposing others impressions onto him, if he didn’t consider himself a Jew then I don’t think he’s a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/36 "2009-09-16T05:15:31Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Ethically, he’s Jewish. And practically, he was a self-loathing Jew. Well, that and a complete and utter asshole. I assume you mean ethnically, not ethically. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/37 "2009-09-16T05:21:11Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Eh? Perhaps but let’s give the nut his due, if he didn’t consider himself Jewish (and I have no idea if he did or not) then he isn’t Jewish from his point of view. OK, but he also didn’t consider himself to be crazy. He was very sane, from his point of view. But that doesn’t mean it was true. > [@](#): > > The only issue I have here is that if Fischer himself didn’t want to be considered Jewish then we should respect that. See, if it was just an issue of him converting to a different religion, or declaring himself atheist, I would respect that. Robert Novak, for instance, was born Jewish, but he converted to Catholicism. And even though Robert Novak was an asshole, I can still respect that conversion, because it’s not like he started bashing the Jews after he did it. But Fischer went far beyond that, into very different territory. He didn’t just declare himself no longer Jewish religiously, he insisted that he was no longer ethnically Jewish, and THAT is insanity, since his mother was Jewish, his biological father is suspected to be Jewish, he grew up in Brooklyn around Jewish intellectuals and bohemians. For him to go from that, to becoming an absolute Nazi and virulent bigot, is something that I CAN’T respect, and so I will continue to consider Bobby Fischer a Jew because to do so is a way of highlighting the hypocrisy and craziness of his position. He was a Jew, who was afflicted with a terrible form of mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/38 "2009-09-16T05:28:44Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > OK, but he also didn’t consider himself to be crazy. He was very sane, from his point of view. But that doesn’t mean it was true. > > See, if it was just an issue of him converting to a different religion, or declaring himself atheist, I would respect that. Robert Novak, for instance, was born Jewish, but he converted to Catholicism. And even though Robert Novak was an asshole, I can still respect that conversion, because it’s not like he started bashing the Jews after he did it. But Fischer went far beyond that, into very different territory. He didn’t just declare himself no longer Jewish religiously, he insisted that he was no longer ethnically Jewish, and THAT is insanity, since his mother was Jewish, his biological father is suspected to be Jewish, he grew up in Brooklyn around Jewish intellectuals and bohemians. For him to go from that, to becoming an absolute Nazi and virulent bigot, is something that I CAN’T respect, and so I will continue to consider Bobby Fischer a Jew because to do so is a way of highlighting the hypocrisy and craziness of his position. He was a Jew, who was afflicted with a terrible form of mental illness. I’m not arguing that his notion that his claiming that he wasn’t ethnically Jewish wasn’t bat shit crazy. He clearly was ethnically Jewish. However, if he didn’t consider himself Jewish then he wasn’t a Jew. A historical Jew sure, but not a Jew. And respect Fischer? Other than his chess playing abilities why would anyone respect him? He was either a mental patient or a complete and utter tosser. Perhaps both. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/39 "2009-09-16T05:34:16Z")
By “respect” I meant, recognize his rejection of Judaism as legitimate. I do not recognize it as legitimate, the way I would if someone converted formally from Judaism to some other religion. What Bobby Fischer did was an act of insanity, not one of any genuine introspection or religious conviction. I mean, he said that “the Jews are driving the African elephant to extinction because its trunk reminds them of an uncircumcised penis.” This is not the rhetoric of even a mentally-sound anti-Semite; it’s the rantings of someone who is deranged. I feel sorry for Fischer more than hate him. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461/40 "2009-09-16T05:40:02Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Fischer, no matter how much he praised Hitler and called for the elimination of the Jews, had Jew blood pumping through his heart - a great deal of Jew blood. What is this “Jew blood” of which you speak, and where can I get some? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-really-the-deal-with-bobby-fischer/509461.md?page=3)