# What Was Roman Wine Like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 25, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971 "2011-03-25T14:48:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/1 "2011-03-25T14:48:43Z")
Often in Latin readings I run into details about wine mixing – some Romans likee it mixed with hot water, some with cold or even tepid water. Some liked to drink it straight, though I get the impression that this is a little unusual. And of course, the Romans are famous for mixing lead into their wine to sweeten it, though I’m not clear what form that came in. As far as I know, wine in the modern world is generally sold in the concentration at which it is expected to be consumed. The alcohol concentration varies from, say, 12% to 22%, limited by the ability of various strains of yeast to live through the anti-bacterial properties of the very alcohol they produce. I realize there are various popular ways of mixing wine – spritzers, sangria, WPLJ, etc – but by and large wine is drunk unmixed and undiluted, am I wrong? But for these, don’t they use wines that are generally lower quality? So it seems unlikely that Roman wine was necessarily stronger, since there is a biological limit to how strong it can get through fermentation. From Martial I.26 I gather that wines were considered to vary vastly in quality, but I’m guessing one reason that wine is less commonly mixed now is that a couple thousand years of research later, we’ve figured out how to make better wines. Or, it’s always possible that the Romans were just different, and that’s all there is to it. Any idea? Also, I recall it coming up once upon a time that the Greeks mixed their wine with salt water. Do we ever salt wine anymore? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/2 "2011-03-25T14:54:52Z")
I never heard about salt water – Greeks mixed wine with fresh water. If you read the _Iliad_, you know that they also mixed in barley and grated cheese – which has to be weird. Wine was generally diluted. Only a barbarian drank undiluted wine. I suspect a lot of it was like the wine my father made – thick, syrupy wine on the high end of the alcohol content. Even before people developed distillation you could increase the alcohol content by other means – setting the casks out to evaporate some water, freezing out the water, and so on. I suspect they may have done this to reduce the space needed for storage, but have no cites. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/3 "2011-03-25T14:57:02Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I never heard about salt water – Greeks mixed wine with fresh water. Specifically, sea water is what I recall hearing, so I may have jumped to conclusions. Or having smoked too much crack and imagined the entire thing. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/4 "2011-03-25T14:57:24Z")
Part of the reason they mixed wine with water is the quality of the water - there was no guarantee of fresh, safe drinking water, so if you were thirsty, you mixed a little alcohol in with the water to kill the baddies. Same as the “small beer” of medieval times - a low alcohol, safe alternative to water. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/5 "2011-03-25T15:04:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > Often in Latin readings I run into details about wine mixing – some Romans likee it mixed with hot water, some with cold or even tepid water. Some liked to drink it straight, though I get the impression that this is a little unusual. And of course, the Romans are famous for mixing lead into their wine to sweeten it, though I’m not clear what form that came in. [Lead acetate.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Historical_use) ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/6 "2011-03-25T15:05:34Z")
My understanding was that their wine was more or less like our brandy today… very strong and not suitable for frequent drinking without dilution. I could be wrong, though. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/7 "2011-03-25T15:06:42Z")
Too bad mixing wine and water does nothing to kill bacteria and germs. The alcohol concentration is too low. The reason small beer was safe to drink is because it was boiled during the brewing process. **Agent** - You don’t get brandy’s alcohol content through fermentation alone. Greek and Roman wines would have peaked at about 14-15% ABV. You could concentrate the alcohols by freezing, but you aren’t going to get to the 40% stage that way. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/8 "2011-03-25T15:15:29Z")
In homebrewing at least it is assumed that actual pathogens die off even in the alcohol concentrations you get in beer… mostly. Bacteria clearly live long enough to be capable of imparting off-flavors to the brew. But I can believe that a mixture with beer or wine can make water safer to drink. What I’m not sure I buy is that people knew about this before the advent of germ theory. Well, there are a lot of things people knew how to do before they had our modern understanding of why they worked that way, but do we have any actual evidence that people did in fact use alcohol to make water safer? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/9 "2011-03-25T15:36:11Z")
> [@](#): > > In homebrewing at least it is assumed that actual pathogens die off even in the alcohol concentrations you get in beer… mostly. Bacteria clearly live long enough to be capable of imparting off-flavors to the brew. bacteria can live long enough in wine to turn it into vinegar. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/10 "2011-03-25T15:43:04Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > But I can believe that a mixture with beer or wine can make water safer to drink. What I’m not sure I buy is that people knew about this before the advent of germ theory. Well, there are a lot of things people knew how to do before they had our modern understanding of why they worked that way, but do we have any actual evidence that people did in fact use alcohol to make water safer? There are references to adding wine to water for some kind of health benefit (there’s one in the Bible, in one of the epistles), but I’m with you on the germ theory part - I think it was probably an aesthetic thing, or based on the notion of it being a digestive aid, like mustard. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/11 "2011-03-25T15:57:37Z")
I asked a literature professor how all the characters in the Iliad could possibly be constantly drinking so much wine and still be good warriors. She said that the wine at that time was made like orange juice concentrate, so that it was easier to transport and store. They drank it very much watered-down, so that it wasn’t the drunk-making stuff we think of as wine today–almost a completely different kind of drink. Like water with fermented grape flavoring. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/12 "2011-03-25T16:00:12Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Too bad mixing wine and water does nothing to kill bacteria and germs. The alcohol concentration is too low. [Not true](http://www.foodnavigator.com/Science-Nutrition/Red-wine-has-anti-bacterial-impact-new-study). > [@](#): > > Researchers at the department of food science and technology at Oregon State University in the US found that all the wines tested had bactericidal activity against Escherichia coli O157:H7, Listeria monocytogenes, Salmonella Typhimurium, and Staphylococcus aureus. With red wine the most potent. > > The synergistic effect of organic acids, ethanol, and low pH seems to be responsible for a major part of the antibacterial effect of wine, said the researchers. The Romans were well aware of this and issued [Posca](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posca) (more or less spoiled wine) to soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/13 "2011-03-25T16:12:57Z")
> [@](#): > > And of course, the Romans are famous for mixing lead into their wine to sweeten it, though I’m not clear what form that came in. They weren’t famous for it, and it’s possible they may not have done so at all. As **jz** ’s link states, the Romans boiled down liquids, generally fruit juices, honey, and the like, to make sweet syrups. Since they often used lead or lead-based pots, they could have gotten lead acetate in them. From my reading it’s not at all clear that they were deliberately trying to produce “sugar of lead”, or that they invariably used lead pots. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/14 "2011-03-25T16:22:47Z")
I am curious about Roman winemaking: after you have fermented the wine (in a wooden barrel), the wine would have been stored in amphoras (unglazed terracotta bottles). The Greeks smeared their amphoras with pine resin (pitch) to make them water-tight-this resin gave Greek wine its characteristic taste (retsina). The Romans did not like retsina-what did they use to seal their amphoras? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/15 "2011-03-25T16:32:03Z")
As for the taste of the wine, in some ways it would have been similar to what we drink today, and in some ways very different. Let’s start off with the grapes themselves. Although there was no Merlot or Riesling, Romans knew about varietals. Columella writes about the [Bitrucia](http://www.biturica.com/biturica-eng.htm) grape > [@](#): > > the first grape variety cultivated in the Bordeaux region as early as the first century A.D. It probably came from the Epire region, located between Greece and Albania. It is thought to be the distant ancestor of our Cabernet Sauvignon as we know it today. And talking of Bordeaux, today you can buy a cheap and nasty Medoc for a couple of Euros, prices ramp up steadily to the heights of absurdity. Same thing in Rome. They had Campania for basic stuff, then there was Falernian from mount Falernius and then there was [Faustian Falernian](http://falernian-wine.co.tv/) which was only made on the middle slopes of the mountain. Today, we add flavour to wine by aging it oak barrels. In Rome, flavour was added by lead, pitch, salt or pine resin. And the origins of the additives occured in a similar manner. A few hundred years ago, wine was shipped in oak barrels because it was convenient. And people happened to like the new flavours. Roman wine was shipped in amphoras which were sealed with pine resin or pitch. Wine was preserved with salt, or the must was boiled in a lead bowl. Romans like those tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/16 "2011-03-25T16:38:03Z")
Very variable. Ancient wines were not stocked by vintage, but only by region. Wines of the same vintage varied so much in quality due to the poor handling and storage during production and shipping. (Heck the Romans ran an empire without anything as fancy as a simple wooden barrel.) So this container might be good and the next one from the same shipment and vineyard might be gruesome. All the wine from one region or another might be said to have some common characteristics however. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/17 "2011-03-25T16:53:42Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Ancient wines were not stocked by vintage, but only by region. Ever see a vintage date on a mason jar of Hearty Burgundy? 😃 The most famous vintage Roman wine was [Opimian Falernium](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opimian_vintage#Golden_age) > [@](#): > > The vintage of 121BC was of legendary fame and became known as the Opimian vintage, named after the consul at the time—Lucius Opimius. The vintage was noted for its large harvest and the unusually high quality of wine that was produced—with some examples still being drunk over 100 years later ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/18 "2011-03-25T17:48:30Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > There are references to adding wine to water for some kind of health benefit (there’s one in the Bible, in one of the epistles), **1 Timothy 5:23 (New International Version, ©2011)** _Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses._ ETA: This instruction was given to a specific person (Timothy), and not to Christians in general. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/19 "2011-03-25T17:54:06Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > **1 Timothy 5:23 (New International Version, ©2011)** > > _Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses._ > > ETA: This instruction was given to a specific person (Timothy), and not to Christians in general. Still, though. Remarkably sensible advice. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971/20 "2011-03-25T18:37:22Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > [Lead acetate.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Historical_use) And let’s not forget that all that water (at least in the cities) the wine was mixed with ran through lead pipes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-roman-wine-like/575971.md?page=2)