# What was Saruman making? (SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 12, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456 "2002-11-12T18:07:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/21 "2002-11-14T17:04:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I am Sparticus \* > \*\*Um, the death of the Witch King was definitely a tip of the hat to MacBeth. Tolkien was classically educated and he knew exactly what he was doing. He was borrowing from many great epics (I don’t think that Tom Bombadil was borrowed, it was probably original) to create an uber epic. Sometimes you need to go to the Silmarllion to find the epic, but is there really one that isn’t included? Milton’s Satan in Paradise Lost is Melkor/Morgoth. Feanor is Ahab. (Silmarillion again.) Frodo/Sam/Gollum groping through the dark to Mordor is Gilgamesh. The ring is the Moby Dick. The Anduin journey is Huckleberry Finn. Lothlorien is The Faerie Queen. The Balrog is Beowulf. Gandalf at the Bridge of Khazad dum is definitely Horatius [http://www.travel-italy.com/ct/episodes/horatius.html](http://www.travel-italy.com/ct/episodes/horatius.html) > […] > These are not allegories. Tolkien hated that sort of thing (C.S. Lewis was not nearly so squeamish). These are tips of the hat, a little borrowing here and there, a suggestion for the well educated reader. The man was a full Professor of languages at Oxford, and spent his life studying myths (great translations of Beowulf and Gwain and the Green Knight). He was knew more about this stuff than Joseph Campbell would later explicate for us on Western Civilizations myths. \*\* ummmm, there may be similarities between his work and some of the classics, but have read Tolkien’s Letters, I would find it very hard to swallow the idea that he “borrowed” so freely, given the objections he raised, time and again, to people who requested permission to copy/use/etc. his work. And the Balrog as Beowulf? That doesn’t even make sense… perhaps Grendal’s mother, but even that is a stretch. I think the Riders of Rohan were based on Norse tales, but only for character development. I also take exception to the comment that Tolkien knew more about Western mythology than Joseph Campbell. Firstly, how could you possibly make that statement based on his translation of Beowulf and Sir Gawain? Second, his field of preference were North European and English myths, and largely out of the love of the languages they were written in, and Joseph Campbell studied the causes of and results of the similiarities between mythologies the world over. These are two totally different avenues of study and can hardly be compared. IMVHO, I must add. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Scene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bob\_Scene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Scene)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/22 "2002-11-14T19:27:36Z")
I think the mill was there because of some of Tolkien’s experiences as a young man seeing idyllic rural places being ruined by industrialization. I remember reading somewhere that he had a lot of resentment of that kind of thing, so that seems to be his idea of one of the worst things you can do to ruin a nice place like the Shire. Saruman might as well have been making paper or flour or just about anything there. ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_Sparticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@I\_am\_Sparticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_Sparticus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/23 "2002-11-14T20:02:32Z")
What Tolkien borrowed from or paid homage to was in the public domain, in many instances without a real author known. And while he may claim that he didn’t borrow the cannot be killed by man line from MacBeth, if he didn’t put a feminist and original twist on it, I’ll be a monkey’s uncle. Yes, these were archtypes and unlike many of his immitators, he used them skillfully and fleshed out real human beings. As for the Balrog being Beowulf, it’s been 25 years since I read it in a middle English translation, I, duh, meant Grendel. Yes, I suppose it could be Grendel’s mother. But the description of the fight in the darkness, always grabbing the enemy, the enemy being the salvation/reputation of the hero. It’s not as if Tolkien can claim he never read Beowulf. And what Tolkien did was not stealing. That is like saying that Shakespeare stole his stuff from Hollinshed’s Chronicles. What Tolkien did was to expand enormously and create something new using these elements. No, I have not read his letters. I am aware that he hated allegories and would not have consciously written one. I don’t think that he did. Tolkien’s work is breathtaking in scope, and not derivative schlock like Terry Brooks Shannara stuff. (Admittedly, I only read the first Shannara book and was so disgusted with its lack of originality that I never tried again.) ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/24 "2002-11-15T02:37:34Z")
**quixotic78** : > [@](#): > > In doing so, he used a number of archetypes – the Wise Man (Gandalf all the way back to… what was his name… Unatipishitam or something like that You mean Mr. Mxyzptlk. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/25 "2002-11-15T05:21:27Z")
Saruman’s mill was just that, a grain-grinding device. He was co-opting the shire as a source of provisions for his armies, in the same way that Sauron had co-opted the lands around the Sea of Nurnen. Yes, he did have the old mill pulled down and replaced with a higher-capacity model (using Lotho Sackville-Baggins as his proxy), but I’m convinced that was for purposes of increased reliability, and partly for easier operation by his men. Saruman had virtually enslaved the people of the Shire! He wasn’t about to make them his armorers. They were quite useful enough as an agricultural asset. His forges and armories were in Isengard where he could exercise a little supervision and control. After Saruman’s arrival in the Shire following his release by Treebeard, his sole purpose was to cause as much ruin and destruction as he could in the time allowed him until the Travellers’ return. I don’t think he was surprised or even particularly concerned about the ruffians’ defeat in the Battle of Bywater, beyond the fact that it meant his time of wreaking havoc was through. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/26 "2002-11-15T18:19:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I am Sparticus \* > **What Tolkien borrowed from or paid homage to was in the public domain, in many instances without a real author known. And while he may claim that he didn’t borrow the cannot be killed by man line from MacBeth, if he didn’t put a feminist and original twist on it, I’ll be a monkey’s uncle. Yes, these were archtypes and unlike many of his immitators, he used them skillfully and fleshed out real human beings. As for the Balrog being Beowulf, it’s been 25 years since I read it in a middle English translation, I, duh, meant Grendel. Yes, I suppose it could be Grendel’s mother. But the description of the fight in the darkness, always grabbing the enemy, the enemy being the salvation/reputation of the hero. It’s not as if Tolkien can claim he never read Beowulf.** It has been a while since I read Macbeth, but the whole forest racing off to war could have been homage paid as well… I said Grendal’s mother because Gandalf fell into a deep, dark abyss to fight the Balrog, just like Beowulf did with Grendal’s mom. I agree Tolkien’s work is amazing. In fact it is the only Fantasy I read, I can hardly get into any other works of fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/27 "2002-11-15T19:41:47Z")
A minor correction: Tolkien did write allegory, he just claimed that he didn’t. No, I’m not referring to _LotR_ here… But sometime, pick up a copy of “Leaf by Niggle”, and tell me that’s not allegory. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/28 "2002-11-15T21:07:51Z")
He was making me a grilled cheese sandwich that I had ordered. (sorry 'bout the mess) ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/29 "2002-11-15T21:41:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*A minor correction: Tolkien did write allegory, he just claimed that he didn’t. No, I’m not referring to _LotR_ here… But sometime, pick up a copy of “Leaf by Niggle”, and tell me that’s not allegory. \*\* True… and according to something I heard somewhere… no cite, it could have been a biography… i can’t remember, but he admitted during an interview on British television that Galadriel represented Mary… Aslan = Christ, Galadriel = Mary, I say Tomato, you say tomato. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/30 "2002-11-15T22:52:26Z")
I don’t see how Galadriel can be Mary. If so, then who’s Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![Primaflora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Primaflora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Primaflora)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/31 "2002-11-16T02:35:13Z")
Feminist? Tolkien a FEMINIST? oh my aching sides. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/32 "2002-11-16T04:31:16Z")
**Primaflora** > [@](#): > > Feminist? > > Tolkien a FEMINIST? > > oh my aching sides. Maybe not, but he wasn’t a chauvinist either. Galadriel, Eowyn and even Shelob are very strong female characters who don’t take any shit offen anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Primaflora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/898d66/32.png) [@Primaflora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Primaflora)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/33 "2002-11-16T07:48:33Z")
Sure, Fiver but the opposite of feminist isn’t necessarily chauvinist. I am not saying that Tolkien didn’t write a couple of strong female characters but you’d be stretching to say that the LOTR is a feminist book overall. Because it ain’t. No way, no how. Unless Shelob is the Andrea Dworkin of Middle Earth. Yeah, I guess that works 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/34 "2002-11-16T08:34:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fiver \* > \*\ ***Primaflora** > > Maybe not, but he wasn’t a chauvinist either. Galadriel, Eowyn and even Shelob are very strong female characters who don’t take any shit offen anyone. \*\* Even Melkor, Baddest of the Bad (and male), was threatened by Ungoliant (mother of Shelob, and female). ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/35 "2002-11-16T11:01:13Z")
It was mentioned in a few places that Saruman had a thing for Shire pipe-weed, didn’t he? Maybe he was constructing a cigarette factory for his own use and to profit from the addiction of others. My God, Saruman was Philip Morris! ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456/36 "2002-11-16T11:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sublight \* > \*\*It was mentioned in a few places that Saruman had a thing for Shire pipe-weed, didn’t he? Maybe he was constructing a cigarette factory for his own use and to profit from the addiction of others. > > My God, Saruman was Philip Morris! \*\* Saruman had indeed cornered the pipe-weed market through ‘swarthy’ folks that, as in the OP (yay _steers back to OP_) made offers the aggy’s in Bree and The Shire ‘could not refuse’ Folks like Farmer Maggot and Barliman could hold their ground through the efforts of the Dunadan Rangers - led by Strider/Aragorn. That Saruman knew so little of who Strider really was, and Aragorn wasn’t able to lay out evidence that the primo White Wizard was ‘Don Saruman’ maybe shows how well the charade worked on all ends. Namarie 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-saruman-making-spoilers/136456.md?page=1)