What Was Saul's Greatest Sin?

[Rampant_Coypu]

Gotta remember that this story is referenced in Bewitched. Samantha’s mother, Endora, was probably the Witch of Endor. And there is ample evidence that Samantha was born before CE 1600. Darin must have been a pretty impressive lay who beat out all others, mortal and warlock, she probably did it with in the previous 400 years.

And we have to remember that the ancient Israelites were quasi-polytheists. They believed that Yahweh was their supreme god among the council of Canaanite gods they called “El” or “Elohim”. This council included Baal, a rival god, and Ha Shatan (AKA Satan, a trickster deity).

Given this council of deities it’s no wonder Saul would seek help from witches and other powers forbidden by Yahweh.

[monavis]

@Lasciel

My church was really hot on him being a “willful” person, as a background reason for the disobedience being such a big sin. It wasn’t the single act of disobedience that doomed Saul, it was his pattern of trusting in himself, and of being impulsive and trying to rely on his own devices to solve problems instead of “letting go and letting God” handle everything. If he had just disobeyed once, that may not have been quite so bad* but it was his underlying personality that was flawed and needed to be repented of.

Needless to say, I am aware now that there was a bit of an ulterior motive for my particular church to harp on that interpretation quite so strongly. Still, it does make sense. The OT God was very patriarchal and tribal, and in those aspects, respect and absolute unquestioning obedience to the authority figure was pretty important, and fairly standard across the area.

*although God was pretty damn harsh on disobedience in any form, regardless of patterns of behavior - note specifically Moses denied entry to the Promised Land.

Look what was supposed to happen to all of us ,because Adam and Eve (who were ignorant) disobeyed !It seemed to be worse than Cain killing Abel!

[ralph124c]

Yes, the OT Lord was pretty harsh-he seemed to smite first…and reflect later.
Pool King Saul-he should have immediately repented (when Samuel made his prediction).
But, maybe the die was cast…or was it??

[BigT]

I think there’s a line in there where God says that, once they have a king, there’s no turning back. Saul was punishment, but David was the best he could get.

And God left Saul because he didn’t destroy all the livestock and other belongings of an enemy as he was told, then made up a lie when confronted abut it by Samuel. The idea is that, by doing so, he declared himself to be over God. David when confronted was sorry, so God let him off easy, killing off at least two children and causing what happened to his grandkid–although that last part my be Solomon’s punishment.

[monavis]

@BigT

I think there’s a line in there where God says that, once they have a king, there’s no turning back. Saul was punishment, but David was the best he could get.

And God left Saul because he didn’t destroy all the livestock and other belongings of an enemy as he was told, then made up a lie when confronted abut it by Samuel. The idea is that, by doing so, he declared himself to be over God. David when confronted was sorry, so God let him off easy, killing off at least two children and causing what happened to his grandkid–although that last part my be Solomon’s punishment.

I wonder if any of the people God is said to have chosen to lead his people would even be considered for a place in out political system?

[Polycarp]

@PandaBear77

Saul did not contact Samuel. He contacted a demon that posed as Samuel.

Cite?

[Malleus_Incus_Stapes]

Definitely the Jewish take is that it was really Samuel.

Actually, there’s a midrash that said the dead people the witch called up usually came upside-down. Out of respect for… one of them (Saul or Samuel, that is) Samuel appeared rightside-up. Also, Samuel apparently thought he was being called to *final *final judgement and so he brought along a whole crowd of righteous dead people to testify on his behalf. So the witch got the shock of her life when she saw a right-side up person with a whole crowd behind him show up. And that’s why she screamed.

[ralph124c]

@Malleus_Incus_Stapes

Definitely the Jewish take is that it was really Samuel.

Actually, there’s a midrash that said the dead people the witch called up usually came upside-down. Out of respect for… one of them (Saul or Samuel, that is) Samuel appeared rightside-up. Also, Samuel apparently thought he was being called to *final *final judgement and so he brought along a whole crowd of righteous dead people to testify on his behalf. So the witch got the shock of her life when she saw a right-side up person with a whole crowd behind him show up. And that’s why she screamed.

Doesn’t the Bible also say that the dead (Samuel included) are ignorant of anything after their passing?
What could Samuel have told Saul anyway?
Or maybe the Lord was having a bit of fun at Saul’s expense..“think your worried now Saul? Just wait till you talk to this dead guy”
The whole incident is a bit puzzling-if the Lord wanted Saul out of the way, why didn’t he just smite him and get it out of the way?

[AncientHumanoid]

@ralph124c

Doesn’t the Bible also say that the dead (Samuel included) are ignorant of anything after their passing?

**Yeah, Psalm 146:4 and Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 (pretty sure these were written long after this Saul/Samuel thing was recorded) **

What could Samuel have told Saul anyway?

Talking to the dead was forbidden in The Law at Deuteronomy 18:10,11, so I wonder if Samuel would have wanted to help a witch or Saul anyways.

Or maybe the Lord was having a bit of fun at Saul’s expense..“think your worried now Saul? Just wait till you talk to this dead guy”
The whole incident is a bit puzzling-if the Lord wanted Saul out of the way, why didn’t he just smite him and get it out of the way?

**
1st Corinthians 10:6-11 said these might be considered warning examples.**

Bold red is my stuff

Of course, I’m just throwing all this out there. Interpretations may vary, as may your mileage.

[AncientHumanoid]

BTW, to keep this out of GD, I’m just posting relevant Bible verses. Your (or anyone’s) interpretation of things is all up to you. I just like Bible stuff as some very interesting stuff. Whether anyone believes they really happened or not or has any meaning for anyone at all is not my concern. That’s why I usually just post the verse without much comment in these types of discussion. Someone else can espouse, debate pro or con, witness or whatever.

[Malleus_Incus_Stapes]

@ralph124c

Doesn’t the Bible also say that the dead (Samuel included) are ignorant of anything after their passing?

I guess it depends how you understand those passages. I was wondering something along those lines myself- the aforementioned midrash specifies that one of the dead guys Samuel brought along was Moses. Who lived about 400 years earlier than Samuel. Maybe they got to know each other in the year that Samuel was dead?

What could Samuel have told Saul anyway?
Or maybe the Lord was having a bit of fun at Saul’s expense..“think your worried now Saul? Just wait till you talk to this dead guy”

I suppose a dead prophet is still a prophet. “Hey, so I was hanging out with God in heaven the other day, and He had this to say about you…”

The whole incident is a bit puzzling-if the Lord wanted Saul out of the way, why didn’t he just smite him and get it out of the way?

Again from the midrash: it was a warning to repent. Basically, Saul was going to die no matter what, but if he accepted his fate it would go easier for him afterwards.

[Skammer]

@NoClueBoy

Just curious, not a debate. For Baptists: how does the cross affect pre Jesus sinners (like King Saul and David or Lot’s wife)? I can’t believe I’ve never asked this before.

Basically, their faith was credited to them as righteousness, and according to the auther of Hebrews “none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.” In otherwords, the OT heroes were counted as righteous because of their faith in God’s promise which was ultimately fulfilled in Jesus.

See Hebrews chapter 11 where many OT figures are specifically name-checked, including David and Samuel.

[AncientHumanoid]

@Skammer

See Hebrews chapter 11 where many OT figures are specifically name-checked, including David and Samuel.

Oh yeah, I’m very familiar with that. “Time would fail me” if I were to go on in great detail about all they did.

Since those mentioned (Abraham, Isaac, Noah, Enoch, etc…) were used as examples of faith in action, it would seem that obedience is being highlighted. Which is what I see in the King Saul story. Saul’s example being a negative one.