# What was so extreme about Barry Goldwater? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281 "2014-02-01T15:13:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/61 "2014-02-02T22:25:50Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > If “Political Cause X” is the state sanctioned murder of protesters, as **Esox** claims, then yes, you pretty clearly do support violence against the political opposition. To be clear, I didn’t say state-sanctioned\* murder\*. Some of the violence against the protesters was, either directly or by turning the other way to let bigots have some good ol’ fun. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/62 "2014-02-02T22:27:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But it was still wrong of him to **object** to people getting arrested for housing discrimination, wasn’t it? Besides, I’m not sure the CRA even defines housing discrimination as a crime. Cite? Even today, we don’t arrest people for housing discrimination, and other enforcement is inadequate against individuals. Because if you did that, it would pretty much make us a police state. If we can’t justify it to fight terrorism, we can’t justify it to fight housing discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/63 "2014-02-02T23:46:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Even today, we don’t arrest people for housing discrimination, and other enforcement is inadequate against individuals. Because if you did that, it would pretty much make us a police state. > > If we can’t justify it to fight terrorism, we can’t justify it to fight housing discrimination. People **are** arrested on suspicion of terrorism. It does not make us a police state. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/64 "2014-02-03T05:42:40Z")
No it doesn’t. Because terrorism isn’t a something normal, every day citizens do very often. Discrimination is. In order to “stamp it out”, as politicians often say because they feel they have to, you would need to establish a network of informers to rival anything Communist countries did. Goldwater’s error, one commonly made by conservatives, is to assume the worst case scenario in regards to what liberals’ goals are. However, liberals have long been willing to settle for muddling along and accepting marginal improvements. That’s why rather than discrimination being stamped out in 1964, it’s gotten steadily better over time, while still being a rather significant problem. We all had to accept shoddy enforcement to slowly deal with the problem, rather than effective, but draconian enforcement that would have made us into a no longer free country. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/65 "2014-02-03T06:06:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No it doesn’t. Because terrorism isn’t a something normal, every day citizens do very often. Discrimination is. In order to “stamp it out”, as politicians often say because they feel they have to, you would need to establish a network of informers to rival anything Communist countries did. We did and we didn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/66 "2014-02-03T06:49:26Z")
The NAACP strongly disagrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/67 "2014-02-03T11:15:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Goldwater’s error, one commonly made by conservatives, is to assume the worst case scenario in regards to what liberals’ goals are. However, liberals have long been willing to settle for muddling along and accepting marginal improvements. Adaher, I rarely agree with you, but I find both these points to be astute, well articulated (if generalized) observations. (And housing discrimination HAS diminished over time, but the NAACP is also right in that it’s still a significant problem.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/68 "2014-02-03T12:16:20Z")
His 1960’s platform did not include gay rights or abortion, not sure on his environmental views. He was quite happy to have religious conservatives on his side in the 1960s & 70s. His 1970’s voting record on abortion was pro-life. However, he had gotten his daughter an illegal abortion. He left Republican Conservatism to the extent he ever believed in it. It didn’t leave him. > [@septimus](#): > > Barry Goldwater believed in freedom. > > From [this site](http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/11/02/barry-goldwater-true-conservative/), we learn that Goldwater believed in freedom _from_ religion: > Goldwater believed in gay rights. > Goldwater believed in women’s right to choose abortion. > Goldwater understood the need for government protection of the environment. > Compare the sanity of a GOP “extremist” in the 1960’s with that of the post-rational GOP! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/69 "2014-02-03T12:20:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > He may not have been as public about them, but Goldwater had long been an abortion rights supporter – his first wife Peggy\* was a founder of the Arizona chapter of Planned Parenthood, and in the 1950s they helped one of their daughters obtain an abortion. It’s just that a lot of people mistakenly think that his pro-choice views came later in life, with his second marriage. > > I couldn’t tell you about his feelings on gay rights, however. (I do know he had a gay grandson, which may have influenced his feelings) > > \*I believe they even have an award named after her. PP had been anti-abortion. He got his daughter an illegal abortion but did not campaign or vote pro-choice in the 1960’s-70’s. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/70 "2014-02-03T13:37:15Z")
Goldwater was a libertarian who didn’t realize it until the 80s. And his principles about constitutionalism are still radical today. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/71 "2014-02-03T14:12:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Goldwater was a libertarian . . . Well, except for his warhawkery. A libertarian cannot in good conscience support the MIC, that’s a big part of biggummint. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/72 "2014-02-03T14:58:45Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I can’t find any evidence that Johnson was the one who parodied Goldwater’s slogan with the slogan “In your guts, you know he’s nuts.” It doesn’t sound like the sort of thing that anyone associated with a political campaign would come up with, let alone the politician himself. It sounds like a comedian’s flippant offhand statement. It sounds exactly like something that people running a savy campaign would come up with. It’s catchy and amusing, hence memorable. Obviously, the campaign would not want to be overtly associated with it, as it is much more effective if it just goes viral. The Johnson campaign did this sort of thing masterfully - look at the “Daisy Girl” add, that just ran once. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/73 "2014-02-03T15:12:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, except for his warhawkery. A libertarian cannot in good conscience support the MIC, that’s a big part of biggummint. Depends on what your libertarianism is based on and what your values are. Goldwater was first and foremost a constitutionalist, and defense is a genuine power granted to the federal government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/74 "2014-02-03T15:24:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Depends on what your libertarianism is based on and what your values are. Goldwater was first and foremost a constitutionalist, and defense is a genuine power granted to the federal government. “Constitutionalism” is **not** a form of libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/75 "2014-02-03T15:36:11Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > PP had been anti-abortion. Since when? PP is primarily concerned with birth control but has always advocated for abortion rights. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/76 "2014-02-03T17:17:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Since when? PP is primarily concerned with birth control but has always advocated for abortion rights. I’ll have to try to find it, but I am sure it has not ALWAYS advocated for abortion rights. I know Margaret Sanger spoke against abortion as a reason she was so passionate for contraception rights. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/77 "2014-02-03T17:37:59Z")
Sanger wanted top prevent abortions _because_ they were generally illegal and thus dangerous. Planned Parenthood wants to prevent abortions today, too. In fact, PP advocates often point out that it does more to prevent abortions than any other organization. That doesn’t mean they want to make abortion illegal, of course. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/78 "2014-02-04T21:34:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “Constitutionalism” is **not** a form of libertarianism. Sure it is. That’s why libertarians are such sticklers for the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/79 "2014-02-04T21:39:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Sure it is. That’s why libertarians are such sticklers for the Constitution. Only the libertarian interpretation of the Constitution. Not surprisingly, pretty much every American political ideology say that they are “sticklers for the Constitution”, and each group interprets it in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281/80 "2014-02-04T22:42:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Certainly it is extreme **now,** but this is not 1964. I heard on TV last year, in coverage of the 50th anniversary of the 1963 March on Washington, that at the time, only one-third of Americans were at all sympathetic to it and two-thirds disapproved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-so-extreme-about-barry-goldwater/680281.md?page=5)