# What was South Asian cuisine like before the Columbian Exchange ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2019, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721 "2019-01-14T05:42:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/21 "2019-01-14T21:35:37Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > As far as what South Asian cuisine in general was like, maybe we’d have to get an idea of what spices and ingredients that are common today in these foods are originally from the Americas. Chilies are a good example, but what others? Sriracha sauce is a great example of this mish-mash (a Vietnamese sauce made with jalapeno peppers), and I know some Indian dishes contain potato, but what other classic Indian or SE Asian foods are dependent on ingredients from the Americas? Peanuts are South American as well, so you can add satay and a whole bunch of other SE Asian foods. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/22 "2019-01-14T21:51:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I once saw a play about Vasci [or Bosco to make the joke work (ed)] Da Gama’s influence on Indian cuisine that made these points > > - No tea > - No chicken eggs (a type of chickens were native to India but for some reason this wasn’t part of the cuisine until European influence) > - No chilis, including bell peppers (capsicum) > - No onions or garlic (?) > - No tomatoes > - No potatoes (my mom puts potatoes in everything, so I can’t imagine Indian food without it) > - No corn (maize) > > What else? What, no Bosco? (advertising slogan from 1964 for a chocolate syrup which came through the Columbian Exchange) ETA: If I had to go to that length to explain a joke it probably wasn’t worth it, I guess, so I will spare you a connected anecdote. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/23 "2019-01-15T10:21:01Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Peanuts are South American as well, so you can add satay and a whole bunch of other SE Asian foods. Satay is just grilled meat on a stick, it doesn’t _have_ to have the peanut sauce. Although it does originate only in the 18th C. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/24 "2019-01-15T12:38:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Satay is just grilled meat on a stick, it doesn’t _have_ to have the peanut sauce. Although it does originate only in the 18th C. In the UK at least, satay is used to refer to the sauce separately as well as the meat onna stick. In fact, you can buy stuff like ‘[Authentic satay noodles](https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/authentic-urban-noodle-street-food--satay-330g)’ which contain neither meat not sticks, but do include peanut sauce, because we don’t have another name for the sauce, other than ‘South East Asian peanut sauce’ which looks stupid on a jar. Yeah, it’s not the original use, but what do you expect from English? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/25 "2019-01-15T15:06:42Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > According to the Cambridge World History of Food, chili peppers were first described in India by a European in 1542; he considered these chilis to be native to India, a sign of how rapidly it had spread and how readily it was accepted. There’s [some evidence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chili_pepper#History) that chilis had already reached Asia before de Gama (though there seems to be no explanation of how they _got_ there). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/26 "2019-01-15T15:22:24Z")
There’s a double meaning to the statement “Indians season their food with pepper”. Before Columbus, Europeans were familiar with Indians as being the people of India, and with pepper as the spice that’s now ubiquitous in shakers or grinders on tables. When Columbus reached the Americas and thought he was in Asia, he assumed that the people he met were natives of the Indies, and so called them Indians, and likewise assumed that the fiery plants in the food were related to black pepper, and so called them peppers. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/27 "2019-01-15T16:11:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Have you ever had Hare Krishna food? It tends, IME, not to be as spicy as modern Indian food. Or rather, not as “hot” spicy, as it’s plentifully-spiced. When I lived in St. Louis, the local ISKCON temple was blessed with an excellent cook, who was renowned throughout the organization, and who attracted tons of customers and guests. When I tried ISKCON food in other cities, it was never half as good as in St. Louis. The St. Louis chef liked it _ **hot** _. That was the place that trained me to eat _ **hot** _. I took cooking classes there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/28 "2019-01-15T16:17:40Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Oh, cool, thanks for reminding me. I just ordered some online. I know I’ve heard of it before, but I’ve never had the opportunity to try it. I’m curious to find out what it tastes like. The descriptions seem to be that of black pepper mixed with undertones of fragrant spices like ginger, nutmeg, cinnamon, etc. I got some long pepper once. The flavor cloyed before long. The undertone was sickly sweet. You can only use a little. Now the only thing I ever use it for is adding small amounts to _berbere_ blends. Tellicherry black pepper is a _Piper nigrum_ cultivar distinguished by extra hotness. I don’t know if it had yet been developed in the old days, but with Tellicherry pepper you could have a pretty hot curry made of all native Asian ingredients. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/29 "2019-01-15T16:19:46Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Sriracha sauce is a great example of this mish-mash (a Vietnamese sauce made with jalapeno peppers) That’s true! (Except for it being a Thai sauce made with cayenne peppers.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/30 "2019-01-15T16:31:56Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That’s true! (Except for it being a Thai sauce made with cayenne peppers.) I thought it was red jalapeños and/or red fresnos. Never heard of cayenne being used in at least the Huy Fong brand (which is the usual Sriracha for most Americans). ETA: [Wikipedia says red jalapeños](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sriracha_sauce_(Huy_Fong_Foods)). > [@](#): > > Huy Fong Foods’ chili sauces are made from fresh red jalapeño chili peppers and contain no added water or artificial colors. For the color, strength of the pepper flavor and the heat level, it doesn’t seem anywhere near hot enough to be cayenne peppers unless those cayennes were cut with red bell peppers or something. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/31 "2019-01-15T17:38:36Z")
I think what Johanna was saying is that sriracha (small ‘s’ generic term for the sauce) is a Thai-originating type of sauce, as opposed to the branded Sriracha (big ‘S’ product from Huy Fong foods in California). The former may be made with cayenne while the latter is made with jalapenos. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/32 "2019-01-15T20:19:24Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I think what Johanna was saying is that sriracha (small ‘s’ generic term for the sauce) is a Thai-originating type of sauce, as opposed to the branded Sriracha (big ‘S’ product from Huy Fong foods in California). The former may be made with cayenne while the latter is made with jalapenos. In that case, I would assume they would use one of their [local chiles](https://www.foodrepublic.com/2016/08/31/hot-stuff-what-are-the-different-thai-chilis/). Perhaps one of those is cayenne, but I don’t know. The differences between various cultivars can get difficult to ascertain. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/33 "2019-01-16T05:09:43Z")
Thanks for the comments, all. Was not aware that black pepper was different from the capsicum New World varieties. Just curious - do any old pre-1500 South Asian recipes survive, that could give some indication of the changes in cuisine? I know there are pre-1500 recipes in some European sources. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/34 "2019-01-16T06:20:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Was not aware that black pepper was different from the capsicum New World varieties. Naming capsicum as “pepper” is another one of those Old World/New World errors that are all too common. That is, someone named something in the New World after something it resembled in the Old World, but which was actually unrelated or only distantly related. And of course this caused lots of confusion. Other examples are calling skunks polecats and the American robin. And BTW, cayenne is capsicum, so not used in pre-1500 Thai food. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/35 "2019-01-16T13:32:06Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Just curious - do any old pre-1500 South Asian recipes survive, that could give some indication of the changes in cuisine? [Sure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_cookbooks#Early_Indian_Texts). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/36 "2019-01-16T15:02:48Z")
Thanks, **MrDibble**. That’s fascinating. _looks up other ancient cookbooks_ > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Was not aware that black pepper was different from the capsicum New World varieties. Not just black pepper - green and white pepper also come from the same plant. In many ways, the history of pepper is the history of the modern word; both de Gama and (to a lesser extent) Columbus were looking for a way to reach India by sea and thus purchase pepper directly. There are also other Old World peppers, such as [Sichuan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sichuan_pepper). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/37 "2019-01-16T15:06:54Z")
While we’re at it, all of the capsicums fall into only a handful of species. Most (including the bell pepper, jalapeno, serrano, poblano, Hungarian wax, and cayenne) are _Capsicum annuum_. The “superpeppers” (habanero, bhut jolokia, Carolina reaper, etc.) are _Capsicum chinense_. Of the other three species, the only varietal I’ve even heard of is the Tabasco pepper, which is a _Capsicum frutescens_, except that there’s some dispute as to whether that’s even a separate species from _C. annuum_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/38 "2019-01-16T16:30:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Thanks, **MrDibble**. That’s fascinating. _looks up other ancient cookbooks_ There’s a rather good [Roman one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apicius), I’ve cooked several dishes from it. The roast peaches with honey, cumin and fish sauce is particularly delicious. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/39 "2019-01-16T16:48:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Thanks for the comments, all. > > Was not aware that black pepper was different from the capsicum New World varieties. > > Just curious - do any old pre-1500 South Asian recipes survive, that could give some indication of the changes in cuisine? I know there are pre-1500 recipes in some European sources. In addition to the above notes on green and white peppercorns, note that pink peppercorns [are from yet another, unrelated plant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_peppercorn), _Schinus molle_. There is, though, such a thing as red peppercorns, which come from the same plant as the white/black/green pepper. These are not very common. (I don’t think I’ve ever seen true red peppercorns for sale myself, but Googling suggests there may be some places that sell it (though I can’t tell if they’re truly red peppercorns, or just pink peppercorns.) When you buy those four-pepper blends, you usually get white, green, black, and pink, for instance, with the pink being the odd peppercorn out, not being of the _Piper_ genus. Then you also have your oddball peppers, like Tasmanian pepper, Japanese Sansho pepper (related to Sichuan pepper), which are also not of the _Piper_ genus. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721/40 "2019-01-16T16:59:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > While we’re at it, all of the capsicums fall into only a handful of species. Most (including the bell pepper, jalapeno, serrano, poblano, Hungarian wax, and cayenne) are _Capsicum annuum_. The “superpeppers” (habanero, bhut jolokia, Carolina reaper, etc.) are _Capsicum chinense_. Of the other three species, the only varietal I’ve even heard of is the Tabasco pepper, which is a _Capsicum frutescens_, except that there’s some dispute as to whether that’s even a separate species from _C. annuum_. _Capsicum baccatum_ has some peppers some of our readers may be familiar with. If you’ve had Peruvian or Bolivian cuisine, you probably have encountered aji amarillo at some point. There’s also the lemon drop/aji limon, but the aji amarillo is the one I’m most familiar with. [Goya makes a paste](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Goya-Yellow-Hot-Pepper-Paste-7-5-oz-Aji-Amarillo/248719762?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=18302&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=s&wl2=c&wl3=42423897272&wl4=pla-51320962143&wl5=9021736&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=125215504&wl11=online&wl12=248719762&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=CjwKCAiAyfvhBRBsEiwAe2t_i367Ek_hVuVC57Hc2nQN0UI3uirYMAljejFVpnjTikIVbRxgBzIqsRoCGvoQAvD_BwE) that you can buy at supermarkets at least around here. I grew a few plants from seed a few years ago, and they are distinct from the _C. annuums_ and _C. chinense_. I would describe them somewhat similar to the _C. chinense_ in terms of their fruitiness, but without anywhere near the heat. (They are about as hot as Tabasco or cayenne peppers, in the 30K-50K Scoville range.) However, there is something a little different about the fruitiness that separates it from the _C. chinense_ peppers. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it’s a bit of a different fruit profile. Nice little write-up on [aji amarillo here](https://www.seriouseats.com/2010/06/spice-hunting-aji-amarillo-chile.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-south-asian-cuisine-like-before-the-columbian-exchange/827721.md?page=3)