# What was the context of Lord Kelvin's infamous statement about flying machines? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558 "2008-07-15T12:58:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/21 "2008-07-16T20:53:44Z")
[QUOTE=maggenpye] There are conflicting claims about the first flight even now. New Zealand’s Richard Pearce eventually accepted that the Wright Brothers were quicker, but I believe there are some European claims for the title. [/QUOTE] About the only possible European claim for manned, powered, heavier-than-air flight prior to Dec 1903 would be the experiments of Clement Ader. He claimed a flight of around 1000 feet in 1897, and was able to put forward some evidence for it. But in 1910, a report from a commission that had observed the attempt was made public, proving that no flight had been achieved. There were also claims of a short (50-meter), low-altitude (under 1-meter) powered flight by Ader in 1890. This may have happened, but was no more aerodynamically significant than a motorcycle jump (the machine had no provision for any sort of control). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/22 "2008-07-16T20:55:20Z")
I seem to remember a _Time_ magazine essay about how the head of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office recommended, sometime in the late 19th century, that the office should be closed, as all useful inventions had already been made. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/23 "2008-07-16T20:56:04Z")
According to [Wikiquote](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lord_Kelvin) the quote is sourced from _The Experts Speak : The Definitive Compendium of Authoritative Misinformation_ (1984) by Christopher Cerf and Victor Navasky. I have no idea regarding the veracity of the book (I’m dubious) but perhaps someone can pick it up and see what it says. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/24 "2008-07-16T21:16:47Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] If you have info about the context of the quote, you should share it [/QUOTE] Sorry if I didn’t make it clear, but I haven’t been able to come up with a cite that the context of the quote is aerial navigation. Yet I’d argue that it stretches credulity to believe he was saying that no man-made object could possibly fly. Such things were indeed commonplace in 1895. For example, the Wrights received a toy helicopters as a gift from their father in 1877. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/25 "2008-07-16T21:18:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I seem to remember a Time magazine essay about how the head of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office recommended, sometime in the late 19th century, that the office should be closed, as all useful inventions had already been made. This quote has twice been debunked in the pages of **The Skeptical Inquirer**. No one can locate an actual source for a serious statement from an officer of the Patent Office saying anything of the sort. It originally appeared in the Spring 1989 issue, pp. 310-313 and was reprinted in the May-June 1993 issue > **[News Archives](https://www.findarticles.com/news/)** > > Explore the News Articles featuring Technology, Business, Entertainment, and Science & Health topics. Access reports, insights, and stories. > [@](#): > > It is rare that we feel moved to republish an earlier SKEPTICAL INQUIRER article. But the myth that a patent commissioner once resigned because “everything that can he invented has been invented” keeps being uncritically repeated in prominent news outlets. So we thought it would he interesting and useful to reprint Samuel Sass’s brief article investigating that claim, “A Patently False Patent Myth,” from our Spring 1989 issue. The article has not appeared in any SI anthology. Author Sass has slightly revised one paragraph, and at the end he provides an update. > > For close to a century there has periodically appeared in print the story about an official of the U.S. Patent Office who resigned his post because he believed that all possible inventions had already been invented. Some years ago, before I retired as librarian of a General Electric Company division, I was asked by a skeptical scientist to find out what there was to this recurring tale. My research proved to be easier than I had expected. I found that this matter had been investigated as a project of the D.C. Historical Records Survey under the Works Projects Administration. The investigator, Dr. Eber Jeffery published his findings in the July 1940 Journal of the Patent Office Society. > > Jeffery found no evidence that any official or employee of the U.S. Patent Office had ever resigned because he thought there was nothing left to invent. However, Jeffery may have found a clue to the origin of the myth. In his 1843 report to Congress, the then-commissioner of the Patent Office, Henry L. Ellsworth, included the following comment: “The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end.” As Jeffery shows, it’s evident from the rest of that report that Commissioner Ellsworth was simply using a bit of rhetorical flourish to emphasize that the number of patents was growing at a great rate. Far from considering inventions at an end, he outlined areas in which he expected patent activity to increase, and it is clear that he was making plans for the future. > > When Commissioner Ellsworth did resign in 1845, his letter of resignation certainly gave no indication that he was resigning because he thought there was nothing left for the Patent Office to do. He gave as his reason the pressure of private affairs, and stated, “I wish to express a willingness that others may share public favors and have an opportunity to make greater improvements.” He indicated that he would have resigned earlier if it had not been for the need to rebuild after the fire of 1836, which had destroyed the Patent Office building. In any case, the letter of resignation should have put an end to any notion that his comment in the 1843 report was to be taken literally. > > Unfortunately, the only words of Commissioner Ellsworth that have lived on are those about the advancement of the arts taxing credulity and presaging the period when human improvement must end. For example, the December 1979 Saturday Review contained an article by Paul Dickson titled “It’ll Never Fly, Orville: Two Centuries of Embarrassing Predictions.” He lists a pageflil of “some of the worst wrongheaded predictions.” Ellsworth’s rhetorical sentence is included with such laughable statements as that said by Napoleon to Robert Fulton: "What sir, you would make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her decks? I pray excuse me. I have no time to listen to such nonsense. > > If in the case of Commissioner Ellsworth there was at least a quotation out of context on which the “nothing left to invent” story was based, a more recent myth attributing a similar statement to a commissioner who served a half-century later is totally baseless. This news story surfaced in the fall of 1985, when full-page advertisements sponsored by the TRW Corporation appeared in a number of leading periodicals, including Harper’s and Business Week. > > These ads had as their theme “The Future Isn’t What It Used to Be.” They contained photographs of six individuals, ranging from a baseball player to a president of the United States, who had allegedly made wrong predictions. Along with such statements as “Sensible and responsible women do not want to vote,” attributed to President Cleveland, and “There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom,” attributed to physicist Robert Millikan, there is a prediction that was supposedly made by Commissioner of the U.S. Patent Office Charles H. Duell. The words attributed to him were: “Everything that can be invented has been invented.” The date given was 1899. > > Since I was certain that the quotation was spurious, I wrote to the TRW advertising manager to ask its source. In response to my inquiry, I received a letter referring me to two books, although I had specifically asked for the primary and nor secondary sources. The books were The Experts Speak, by Christopher Cerf and Victor Navasky, published in 1984 by Pantheon, and The Book of Facts and Fallacies, by Chris Morgan and David Langford, published in 1981 by St. Martin’s Press… > > (see the link for the rest) See also [http://www.ipmall.fplc.edu/hosted\_resources/PatentHistory/posass.htm](http://www.ipmall.fplc.edu/hosted_resources/PatentHistory/posass.htm) ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/26 "2008-07-16T22:03:03Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] But looking at the transcript of the interview available on the site linked by **Anaglyph** - [here](http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/papers/interview_aeronautics_and_wireless.html) - it really does start to look like he just believed his own opinions a little too strongly. (This interview is apparently not the source of the quote I’m asking about, but it does discuss the same subject matter) [/QUOTE] I’m not aware of any more detailed discussion from Kelvin of his doubts. The oft-quoted remarks he made are generally lacking in context and justification. He was extemely widely quoted in the press at the time, so it’s hardly surprising to find him expressing essentially unsupportable opinions off-the-cuff. However, I will note that the interview only really touches on _controllable_ flight. Thus he’s not denying that Lilienthal _flew_, he’s suggesting that he couldn’t do so safely. Similarly, his objections about airships are whether they can do more than effectively drift with the wind. > [@](#): > > That is in fact my motive for asking the question in this thread - I’m wondering if the context makes it less ridiculous - maybe he thought that heavier than air flight couldn’t be scaled up _beyond_ birds, or something. By contrast, Simon Newcomb did explicitly explain his reservations in [his famous 1903 popular article](http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/v3p167y1977-78.pdf) (a pdf). While wrong in hindsight, his arguments were cogent and the article is clearly written and well worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/27 "2008-07-16T22:29:56Z")
It looks to me as if he meant that practical flying machines were impossible _using the technology of the time_. Consider this quote that **Anaglyph** posted above… [QUOTE=Anaglyph] “The air-ship, on the plan of those built by Santos-Dumont, is a delusion and a snare. A gas balloon, paddled around by oars, is an old idea, and can never be of any practical use. **Some day, no doubt, some one will invent a flying machine that one will be able to navigate without having to have a balloon attachment. But the day is a long way off when we shall see human beings soaring around like birds**.” [TLWT, vol. 2, p. 1168] [/QUOTE] That, to me, sounds as if he is saying that it _could_ be done, just not at the time. The only mistake he seems to have made is overestimating how long it would take to become practical. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/28 "2008-07-16T22:57:52Z")
[QUOTE=Xema] About the only possible European claim for manned, powered, heavier-than-air flight prior to Dec 1903 would be the experiments of Clement Ader. He claimed a flight of around 1000 feet in 1897, and was able to put forward some evidence for it. But in 1910, a report from a commission that had observed the attempt was made public, proving that no flight had been achieved. There were also claims of a short (50-meter), low-altitude (under 1-meter) powered flight by Ader in 1890. This may have happened, but was no more aerodynamically significant than a motorcycle jump (the machine had no provision for any sort of control). [/QUOTE] There’s a [few](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_flying_machine) more than that - but I wasn’t denying the Wright’s their claim - I was trying to find context for Lord Kelvin’s skepticism. At a time when there were multiple claims, from sources of varying reliability, Kelvin may have only witnessed attempts that were so far off base that the other claims could also be dismissed. Film was in its infancy, there was no way of transmitting pictures faster than trains could carry them. No instant report by radio. Kelvin’s fastest information would have arrived by morse code. It’s all very well for us to say that aerodynmics are logical and an intelligent man like Lord Kelvin should have realised what was possible, but early planes were developed along different lines because even the makers were trying to work it out as they went. The Wrights used a bi-plane model with ‘pusher’ propellers to keep the aircraft stable - Pearse (to my eternal shame, I spelt his name wrong previously) used a mono wing with a single tractor propeller, using the low centre of gravity for stability. Pearse also used aelierons, but sited them in the wrong place, so even if he’d flown earlier, he’d still have trouble claiming \*controlled \* flight. Both invented heavier than air flight independantly - the laws of physics were the same for each, but their methods of using those laws had to be worked out from scratch. The Wrights’ plane is very similar to the bi-planes that followed it. Pearse’s is very similar to modern microlites. [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers#Competing_claims) - also has a section detailing the Wrights’ troubles having their invention recognised, > [@](#): > > The Paris edition of the Herald Tribune headlined a 1906 article on the Wrights “FLYERS OR LIARS?” , which would put Lord Kelvin’s 1895 quote into context. People still didn’t believe it three years after it happened, why should he have believed it 8 years before? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/29 "2008-07-16T23:34:12Z")
[QUOTE=maggenpye] Both invented heavier than air flight independantly - the laws of physics were the same for each, but their methods of using those laws had to be worked out from scratch. The Wrights’ plane is very similar to the bi-planes that followed it. Pearse’s is very similar to modern microlites. [/QUOTE] The important difference is that the Wrights developed and patented a practical system of 3-axis control (which has been fundamental to about 98% of manned flight ever since). Pearse did not. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/30 "2008-07-16T23:58:37Z")
Yes, their approaches were different, as were the approaches of the other inventors - _most were not successful_ - that was my point. Kelvin would have known more unsucessful attempts (_n_\>0) than sucessful ones (0) at the time he made the quote - even though the other plane makers had the same knowledge of physics that the Wrights and Kelvin did. I’m not arguing the details of powered flight - I’m trying to put Kelvin’s attitude in context, as per the OP. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/31 "2008-07-17T00:08:43Z")
If you start out by rereading the very useful post #7 by **Anaglyph** , you’ll see under the section titled “On Aeronautics” four quotes attributed to Kelvin. The last three quotes all have quite verifiable links to sources. The first, the one in question in the OP, has no link. That should be your first clue. The statement “I can state flatly that heavier than air flying machines are impossible.” is a paraphrase of what **Mangetout** asked about in the OP. I have no doubt that the quote attibuted to Kelvin in this or a similar form didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/32 "2008-07-17T02:53:05Z")
[QUOTE=maggenpye] Kelvin would have known more unsucessful attempts (_n_\>0) than sucessful ones (0) at the time he made the quote [/QUOTE] Agreed - the statement would be a piece of utter nonsense if made after the appearance of a successful flying machine. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/33 "2008-07-17T03:22:13Z")
The Wrights were very wary of patent infringement and there were still doubters that they had actually made the first controlled flight for several years after the historic Kitty Hawk flight. **CalMeacham** , thanks for the info on the spurious remark by a U.S. patent official. Ignorance fought! ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2008, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558/34 "2008-07-17T08:45:48Z")
[QUOTE=Xema] Agreed - the statement would be a piece of utter nonsense if made after the appearance of a successful flying machine. [/QUOTE] A lot of people made similar statements \*after \*the fact - as previously stated by several posters. There wasn’t enough reliable reporting for such an event to be taken on trust. The Wrights didn’t help by refusing more public demonstrations (as **Elendil’s Heir** said, for fear of their work being copied). That disbelief wasn’t “utter nonsense”, it was ignorance of the facts. To clarify once more - there were attempts at powered, controlled flight, maybe none successful, definitely none \*proven \*during the time Kelvin made the statement. Even in 1907, when he died, there was still no definitive proof that the Wrights had flown - they waited till they had not only the patent, but also production contracts before staring flight demos again in 1908. Again, you seem to be missing the ‘context’ - that Lord Kelvin did not have direct proof that any flight had been made, he had unreliable second or third-hand reports. The Wrights certainly had flown before he died, but he still would have had no proof and therefore no reason to alter his belief. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-context-of-lord-kelvins-infamous-statement-about-flying-machines/456558.md?page=1)