# What was the last word on the possibility of a stolen 2004 election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108 "2012-07-13T14:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/21 "2012-07-13T16:26:13Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > the one that’s linked to in the text I quoted, of course. What other report would I be referring to. I guess I’m confused because the link isn’t to a report. (Neverthless, now I understand your post more clearly.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/22 "2012-07-13T16:29:26Z")
> [@](#): > > What was the last word on the possibility of a stolen 2004 election? That if there was any real, substantial evidence for this it would have been produced by now, and steps taken to punish those responsible AND radically change the voting systems in the places such as Ohio where this supposedly happened. Since afaik none of this has happened, the obvious conclusion would be…? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/23 "2012-07-13T16:30:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I guess I’m confused because the link isn’t to a report. (Neverthless, now I understand your post more clearly.) I found the two paragraphs summarizing his points very powerful: > [@](#): > > The flip side to this lack of a “clear and convincing” polling explanation is that the exit pollsters have failed to explain or even consider many indicators highly suggestive of fraud: The 10.0 percentage point WPD in Bush strongholds is an astounding number in and of itself. It means that in precincts where according to the official count Bush received 90 percent and Kerry 10 percent, exit polls indicated that, on average, Bush would get 85 percent and Kerry 15 percent. In other words, in Bush strongholds across the country, Kerry, on average, received only about two-thirds of the votes that exit polls predicted. In contrast, in Kerry strongholds, exit polls matched the official count almost exactly. > > And this is just one in a series of indicators of fraud. An analysis of state-by-state differentials in WPD indicates that discrepancies are higher in battleground states, higher where there were Republican governors, higher in states with greater proportions of African-American communities, and higher in states where there were the most Election Day complaints. [Source.](http://www.yuricareport.com/2004%20Election%20Fraud/FreemanAnsFarhadManjoo.html) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/24 "2012-07-13T16:30:31Z")
And the central thrust of the linked article is indeed “Manjoo misunderstood a lot of things.” This is in turn intended as a partial defense of the thesis that the election was stolen, but the stolenness of the election isn’t by any means the “central thrust” of the article. The article’s central thrust is to cast doubt on Manjoo’s arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/25 "2012-07-13T16:31:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I found the two paragraphs summarizing his points very powerful: > > [Source.](http://www.yuricareport.com/2004%20Election%20Fraud/FreemanAnsFarhadManjoo.html) Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/26 "2012-07-13T19:55:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I found the two paragraphs summarizing his points very powerful: > > [Source.](http://www.yuricareport.com/2004%20Election%20Fraud/FreemanAnsFarhadManjoo.html) Is that a Truther site? [Source.](http://www.yuricareport.com/Directories/OnSept11EventsStudiesAftermath.html) > [@](#): > > .. I am not alone in believing that the attacks of September 11th were facilitated, orchestrated and executed by the United States Government. > > \ > > The 9/11 Attacks were the result of deliberate planning and orchestrated efforts by identifiable leaders within the US government, and the energy and financial sectors… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/27 "2012-07-13T19:58:35Z")
The accusations that Bush stole the election in 2004 are exactly as valid as the claims that Obama stole the election in 2008 or will steal the election in 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/28 "2012-07-13T20:12:25Z")
The pollsters’ own conclusions, from 2005, are reported [here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22188-2005Jan19.html). > [@](#): > > Interviewing for the 2004 exit polls was the most inaccurate of any in the past five presidential elections as procedural problems compounded by the refusal of large numbers of Republican voters to be surveyed led to inflated estimates of support for John F. Kerry, according to a report released yesterday by the research firms responsible for the flawed surveys. > > The exit pollsters emphasized that the flaws did not produce a single incorrect projection of the winner in a state on election night. But “there were 26 states in which the estimates produced by the exit poll data overstated the vote for John Kerry . . . and there were four states in which the exit poll estimates overstated the vote for George W. Bush,” said Joe Lenski of Edison Media Research and Warren Mitofsky of Mitofsky International. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/29 "2012-07-13T20:22:00Z")
If there had been compelling evidence of vote tampering or other illegal activities, I would have expected a Congress which was Democratically controlled for 4 years shortly after that election to have produced some evidence and to have done something. Did they? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/30 "2012-07-13T20:46:14Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > … Ohio switching to Bush at the last minute, New Mexico counties only going to Bush in districts with voting machines, the GAO saying voting machines were demonstrably unreliable and manipulatable … If someone could just find anything that even suggested that non-citizen Mexicans voted in New Mexico or unreliable and manipulatable Ohio IDs resulted in people voting multiple times . . . then, and only then would some folks be interested in finding out if the 2004 election was stolen. CMC fnord! > [@Frylock](#): > > … on the other hand, I know people can make terrible arguments in one field yet make perfectly good arguments on other topics … Is the mirror of the appeal to authority (e.g. Einstein put the wrong additions in his tea therefore Einstein’s theory about the random moving of particles suspended in a fluid is wrong too) a formal logical fallacy? It should be. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/31 "2012-07-13T20:48:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If there had been compelling evidence of vote tampering or other illegal activities, I would have expected a Congress which was Democratically controlled for 4 years shortly after that election to have produced some evidence and to have done something. Did they? You would have expected Democrats to have spines? I don’t understand. Plenty of elections may have been ‘stolen’ in this country, but proving it is another matter. There are plenty of people in both major parties who do what they can to skew the elections in their favor, and claim the other side cheated when they lose. But you can’t easily get away with stealing a lopsided election. If it happens at all, it happens in close elections, and like boxing, if you don’t knock the other guy out and it goes to the scorecards, anything can happen. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/32 "2012-07-13T21:09:19Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You would have expected Democrats to have spines? I don’t understand. I does’t take a spine to launch an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/33 "2012-07-13T21:47:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is that a Truther site? > > [Source.](http://www.yuricareport.com/Directories/OnSept11EventsStudiesAftermath.html) It was reprinted from [Salon.com, here](http://www.salon.com/2006/06/12/freeman_3/). Let’s just consider it a [Salon.com](http://Salon.com) article and avoid dragging Truther nonsense into the discussion … have you nothing better? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/34 "2012-07-13T21:49:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I does’t take a spine to launch an investigation. They did investigate - that’s the problem. They didn’t find anything. But apparently the Dems bypassed a chance to exploit the greatest political scandal since Watergate, because they were afraid of - what, exactly? Kerry in the White House? The chance to nail down control of the federal government for another decade? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/35 "2012-07-13T22:10:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > It was reprinted from [Salon.com, here](http://www.salon.com/2006/06/12/freeman_3/). Let’s just consider it a [Salon.com](http://Salon.com) article and avoid dragging Truther nonsense into the discussion … Look, dude. You were the one who linked to a Truther site. The best way to not bring Truther nonsense into a thread is not to link to Truther sites. You might want to make a note of that for future reference. > [@Shodan](#): > > They did investigate - that’s the problem. They didn’t find anything. Is there a link to this? I honestly don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/36 "2012-07-14T01:48:53Z")
Not exactly a secret that the Clintonista faction refused to support Kerry, as they were planning HRC’s run in 2008. We don’t know why Kerry dropped it so easily. But there are any number of persons, not necessarily connected with either Bush or Clinton, who could have whispered in John Kerry’s ear that his children would be targeted and killed if he fought back. The sheer number of sources RFK Jr. pulls out seems pretty damning to me. That’s not a case of looking and finding nothing. That’s a case of finding stuff, having stuff volunteered, and doing nothing because the whole system and both parties are too corrupt to care. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/37 "2012-07-14T11:38:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is there a link to this? I honestly don’t remember. [Cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41275-2004Dec6.html). [This](http://www.iwantmyvote.com/lib/downloads/references/house_judiciary/final_status_report.pdf) is what they came up with. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/38 "2012-07-14T12:47:31Z")
Stealing an election is very hard to do, because our system is so decentralized and it’s hard to know in advance which state or states will be pivotal. Let’s say you fix Florida. Oops, there goes Ohio, you risked 20 years in prison for nothing. Now if we ever adopt the crazy idea that we should have national elections, no electoral college, then we’ll see some election fixing. Just stuff some ballot boxes in LA and Chicago and there ya go. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/39 "2012-07-14T12:52:54Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > But there are any number of persons, not necessarily connected with either Bush or Clinton, who could have whispered in John Kerry’s ear that his children would be targeted and killed if he fought back. Not necessarily connected with Planet Earth, either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108/40 "2012-07-14T13:56:23Z")
It seems pretty clear to me that the 2000 elections were an absolute travesty of democracy and will be remembered in the history books as a completely embarrassing failure of our system. The 2004 elections, not so much. I mean, sure, we elected the wrong guy, but the evidence of shenanigans is pretty close to nonexistent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-last-word-on-the-possibility-of-a-stolen-2004-election/628108.md?page=3)