What was the message of Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine"?

Great Debates
41

Oh gawd.

I’m really not wanting to get into another gun control debate. They are too much energy and are not generally populated with people who actually are not at all interested in understanding each others POVs. The same posters put up the same arguments and no one moves. But let me make mayself clear and then you can agree disagree or whatever.

Yes Susanann. I believe that a robbery or a drug deal committed by someone armed with a gun is more likely to end up with people killed than one committed by someone armed with a frying pan and is thus a worse crime. Since it is my belief (and I have already stated that I have no proof of this statement) that a large portion of homicides are related to the arming of an urban poor population as direct and indirect result of the drug war, I believe that either you find ways to not fight that war (win or accept a certain level of defeat as unavoidable) or to at least find ways to decrease the level of firepower being used in it.

42

I will have to find the crime/murder/prison rates of Canadian resident aliens again, but what I mean by far fewer, is the number of violent crimes and murders per 100,000 committed by Canadian born who are now living as resident aliens in the United States.

For example, the crime rates of some communities in Florida with large populations of ex-Canadians who retired in Florida. When Canadians move from Canada to the United States, they leave a country where guns are very restricted and comparitively less common, and they move into a country where guns are more proliffic.

All other things being equal, any gun control proponent would expect the Canadians moving to the United States to increase his murder and crime activitity, and certainly expect Canadians living in the United States to be much more violent, much more prone to crime and murder than the Canadians he left behind in Canada.

Yet, the simple fact is, that these Canadians who move here do not commit more crimes and murders just because they move to Florida or any other state now that they are no longer under those tight Canadian gun laws, even though they can buy and carry guns just like american citizens can. The United States, most states, allow resident Canadians to own and carry guns after they move here.

The numbers per 100,000 of Canadians who are resident aliens living in the United States have a lower murder/crime/prison rate than the overall rate of Canadians in Canada. (e.g., if the murder rate of Canadians in Canada is 2.0 per 100,000, the murder rate of Canadians living as resident aliens in the United States is only 1.0 per 100,000). The numbers of resident aliens from Canada in United States prisons for violent crimes also experience a lower prison/incarceration rate than all of Canada does.

Generally speaking, Canadians who move to the United States do NOT go on a crime/murder spree when they move to the United States.

They instead experience a lower crime/murder rate than the citizens still in Canada - the only factor changing is moving from a country with tight gun contol to one of less gun control - a direct contradiction to those who maintain that Canadians dont commit as many murders/crime because they are under restrictive gun laws in Canada.

This further suggests, as Michael Moore pointed out, that it is not guns, nor gun laws, nor bowling, nor video games, nor tv, etc that cause people to murder, even when comparing Canada to the United States.

43

I don’t know, are they?

Is that so? According to whom?

Where are the numbers to back this up?

Says who?

Who says so?

It’s hard to decide of your opinion is well-reasoned or not, since you give no source whatsoever for the “facts” you provide to support it.

44

Susanann, you mean the retired senior citizens who make up the bulk of Canadian resident aliens lving in Florida are rarely involved in gun related crimes? Who would have thought that? This is, by my count, the <b>third</b> time that you’ve tried this bizarre, inappropriate manipulation of statistics regarding gun related crimes in the US and Canada that shows a willful ignorance of underling demographics. It didn’t fly before so what makes you think that pulling this chestnut out for a third time is going to work?

45

Yeah… I guess it wasn’t clear. I know exactly what you were saying, but is it actually like a factor of 2, as you used in your example? Or a factor of 1.1 or 10 or what?

However, while I am curious about the number, there’s something of a selection effect at work, because Canadian emigrants are not a random sample of Canadians. Does that make sense?

46

I am a big fan of documentaries, so I enjoyed the film while I was watching it. However, afterwards, my wife (Democrat) and myself (Libertarian) were discussing the overall merits of the film.

Conclusion between us: The film had very little merit. It didn’t sufficiently address the main question that was raised several times during the film: “Why is America’s culture so violent?”

He only briefly mentioned the differences of the media in different cultures, but he dropped the subject without so much as a speculation. However, he felt free to speculate on all sorts of things about the NRA.

All in all, for information purposes, the documentary failed, in our opinion.

47

Um, because they’re unknown?

Pretty hard to categorize a murder in which the FBI doesn’t know the reason or doesn’t know the relationship between the offender and the victim.

Okay, the number one cause of murder is unknown and was perpetrated on people with a relationship to them that is unknown, which also throws bri1600bv’s statement out of the water. Better?

48 
Well if the well informed and pretty articulate people among the Dopers can't put forward a good explanation for gun violence in the USA... Michael Moore alone would find it pretty hard. There are too many factors and he would be crucified for any answer he provided I feel...
49

Rashak:

I think you are wrong. I think that we all inherently know the reason for gun violence in the US: simply put, it is the US society. Combine cheap and plentiful guns, especially handguns, with lax guns laws with poverty with a cycle of poverty with a glorification of wealth with a violent history and a media bent on reporting violent crime above all else with a individualist approach to governance. Michael Moore had his own little agenda – in which he attempted to spotlight the media above all else. Everyone here pretty much agrees that he was wrong, or at least not all right. It is not difficult to answer the question about the factors behind gun violence in the US. It is far more difficult to identify which are the major factors, which factors are easiest to remedy, and what effective measures to reduce gun violence would be. I would like to think that reducing handguns would go a long way to this goal, but I acknowledge that the other side has good arguments and good statistics on their side. It is a complicated problem and there are no obvious solutions.

50

Fine Edwino… but by trying to “explain” Moore would chance overdoing or missing the whole point of exposing gun culture. My Darwin analogy again.

I liked the movie… it was an eye opener to many. The absurdities he shows and how he does it were fun and informative.

51

Are you saying that things like age(and possilby other demographics), are much more of a factor in crime and murder than either gun laws or the prevalance of guns?

For once, I will certainly agree with you if that is what you are saying.

52

It makes perfect sense, esp when you consider that those Canadians that move to Florida, can not only buy as many guns/handguns that they want, but they can also get a permit to carry a concealed handgun, yet they still dont commit murders - ergo: guns and gun laws are not a factor in whether murder gets committed(again the same point that Michael Moore was making).

53

It isnt.

What do you mean by the “American Culture”?

Which American culture? What American culture?

Is there such a thing? Is the “culture” of Black Eagle Montana the same “culture” as Roxbury Massachussets? (I dont think so)

Do you mean the culture of the people of North Dakota or Vermont, or the culture of the ranchers and farmers of Wyoming, Nebraska, Idaho, who are among the lowest murder rates of any country in the world? I for one, certainly wouldnt call these people violent, they seem such peacefull folks and they would certainly resent being called “violent”.

Or do you mean the culture of the people of Washington DC or Detroit or Chicago which have murder rates among the highest murder rates in the world.

If you look and see where all the murders are, and where all the murders arent, you will see frequency blobs in inner cities where the majority of the murders occur, and the culture in those blobs is nothing like the culture of the people in Taylor Nebraska or Dogden North Dakota where no American murders anyone.

The fact is that geographically, most of America has a very small murder rate. It is the big cities, and other small areas with untypical demographics and with their own particular/peculiar cultures, where most of the murders occur.

If you live in Garfield Nebraska, Minot North Dakota, or Dowell Illinois, I wouldnt worry too much about the lumped in “aggregate” murder rate spread out statistically over the entire country.

But if you live in Washington DC, then “murder rates” might be something to be concerned about.

54

Susanann,

What they are trying to tell you is that the Canadians that are moving to the US are less prone to murder anywhere they go because they are mostly older and retired. So your OVER REPEATED example of Canadians having access to guns in the USA is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Let's say that for example a horrible coup took place in Brazil... and 1 million highly educated white brazilians like myself got permitted into the US. Statistacally we would have way lower crime rates in our expatriate community no matter which country. Even if the liberal gun laws allowed us to walk around like storm troopers. Now if we exported 1 million mostly poor and uneducated slum dwellers to the US... their crime rate would probably be higher than the US average. 

Now if a equal share of all Brazilian or Canadian "classes" changed to the USA and if the ease to get guns would make crime levels higher or lower than before when they were in their home countries... that might be cause for speculation on the wisdom or not of US gun laws.
55

No.

What you just said is that “older, retired” Canadians are less prone to murder, no matter what the gun laws are.

You also said that “better educated” “white Brazilians” are less prone to murder, and that “poor and uneducated slum dwellers” are more prone to murder “no matter which country” regardless of gun laws and availability.

Now you are on to something.

Its not the guns or gun laws, it is other factors, just like Michael pointed out.

I dont know what the gun laws/availability are in Brazil, but what I can say is that the crime/murder rate of your largest city in Brazil must be higher/more dangerous than in Bismark North Dakota.

56

Susanann, I’ll admit that it’s part culture, but Canadian migrees to the United States aren’t a random sampling of Canadians. I will not believe that the difference in murder rates is entirely, or even mostly, cultural. The correlation between the number of guns and the number of murders is simply too convenient.

57 
There is the crux of your misunderstanding... you should have said its not JUST guns. You insist in discounting guns. Of course its not JUST guns. That's a no brainer... but then people in Bismark North Dakota aren't the majority of the USA are they ?

 The issue is if people from North Dakota and from Washington if they had less acess to guns would kill less. They might want or not to people... but guns help when you want to kill. 

 I know you keep saying murder rates in the US are "normal" but they aren't for a rich country... we are trying to figure what causes something which you deny even exists at all.
58

Gee, look at that - people with no hands commit fewer gun crimes. So therefore having hands, not gun control laws, is responsible for crime.

59

Sorry, that was kind of flippant. But the idea is this: I’m willing to believe that the poor and the young are more likely to commit gun crimes, but you can’t exactly pass laws against being young or poor.

60

Actually, DC’s murder rate is no where near as bad as it used to be, and is hardly at the top of the list of big cities from a per capita standpoint. It has slightly more than 1/3 of the murder rate of New Orleans.

Regarding the cities being where one should be more concerned about murder, I’m not convinced that this is true. While small towns generally only have between 0-5 murders, a town of 10,000 with 2 murders has the exact same murder rate as New Orleans, the esteemed Murder Capitol of the US. Using per capita murder rates, which seems fair, considering we’re talking about your chances of being murdered, the following cities have higher murder rates than New Orleans:

Atmore
Baker Hill
Bayou La Batre
Brundidge
Centre
Childersburg
Clayton
Columbiana
Evergreen
Foley
Georgiana
Hamilton
Heflin
Lineville
Montevallo
Moody
Opp
Pickensville
Priceville
Red Bay
Red Level
Tarrant City
Union Springs

…and that’s just the state of Alabama.

Are there more murders in a city of 10 million people than there are in a city of 10 thousand? Certainly. Does that mean you’re safer in a small town? Not necessarily.