# What was the most advanced African nation to have existed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 27, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982 "2010-05-27T19:33:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/1 "2010-05-27T19:33:59Z")
Sub-Saharan, pre-European colonisation, what was the most advanced nation in Africa, using social, political and technological standards as measurement. And, what was the written culture like? Are there any African equivalents of Plato, Aristotle etc? Recent thread got me wondering. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/2 "2010-05-27T19:39:12Z")
I’ll offer the [Mali Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire) as a starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/3 "2010-05-27T19:40:59Z")
The empire of Mali would be a contender. > **[Mali Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire)** > > The Mali Empire (Manding: Mandé or Manden; Arabic: مالي, romanized: Mālī) was an empire in West Africa from c. 1226 to 1670. The empire was founded by Sundiata Keita (c. 1214 – c. 1255) and became renowned for the wealth of its rulers, especially Mansa Musa (Musa Keita). At its peak, Mali was the largest empire in West Africa, widely influencing the culture of the region through the spread of its language, laws and customs. > The empire began as a small Mandinka kingdom at the upper reaches of ... The Empire is famous for its centre of learning in Timbuktu: > **[Timbuktu | Centre of learning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu#Centre_of_learning)** > > Timbuktu was a world centre of Islamic learning from the 13th to the 17th century, especially under the Mali Empire and Askia Mohammad I's rule. The Malian government and NGOs have been working to catalog and restore the remnants of this scholarly legacy: Timbuktu's manuscripts. > Timbuktu's rapid economic growth in the 13th and 14th centuries drew many scholars from nearby Walata (today in Mauritania), leading up to the city's golden age in the 15th and 16th centuries that proved fertile ground f... Including the famous university of Sankore: > **[Sankore Madrasah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankore_University)** > > Sankoré Madrasa (also called the University of Sankoré, or Sankore Masjid, French: Université de Sankoré) is one of three ancient centers of learning located in Timbuktu, Mali. It is believed to be established by Mansa Musa, who was the ruler of the Mali Empire, though the Sankoré mosque itself was founded by an unknown Malinke patron. The three mosques of Sankoré: Sankoré, Djinguereber, and Sidi Yahya comprise the University of Timbuktu. The madrasa went through multiple periods of patronage Th... ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/4 "2010-05-27T19:44:19Z")
Never mind ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/5 "2010-05-27T19:46:16Z")
Egypt ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/6 "2010-05-27T19:47:06Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Egypt OP specified sub-Saharan. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/7 "2010-05-27T19:47:12Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Egypt The OP specified sub-Saharan. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/8 "2010-05-27T19:51:06Z")
Egypt’s out for not being sub-saharan, but what about Meroë? > **[Meroë](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mero%C3%AB)** > > Meroë (/ˈmɛroʊiː/; also spelled Meroe; Meroitic: Medewi; Arabic: مرواه, romanized: Meruwah and مروي, Meruwi; Ancient Greek: Μερόη, romanized: Meróē) was an ancient city on the east bank of the Nile about 6 km north-east of the Kabushiya station near Shendi, Sudan, approximately 200 km north-east of Khartoum. Near the site is a group of villages called Bagrawiyah (Arabic: البجراوية). This city was the capital of the Kingdom of Kush for several centuries from around 590 BC, until its collapse The... ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/9 "2010-05-27T21:09:59Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > OP specified sub-Saharan. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > The OP specified sub-Saharan. Jinx. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/10 "2010-05-27T21:37:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Egypt’s out for not being sub-saharan, but what about Meroë? > > [Meroë - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mero%C3%AB) I was in Meroë not too long ago. It is most certainly Saharan rather than sub-Saharan. Four of us camped among the pyramids and there is almost zero vegetation… only sand, and near-zero humidity as well. Sub-Saharan starts a few hundred km south of Khartoum at best. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/11 "2010-05-27T21:42:41Z")
Map of pre-colonial African civilizations to consider: > **[File:African-civilizations-map-pre-colonial.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:African-civilizations-map-pre-colonial.svg)** > > Original file ‎(SVG file, nominally 1,390 × 1,295 pixels, file size: 487 KB) > Africa History Atlas > Diachronic map showing pre-colonial cultures of Africa (spanning roughly 500 BCE to 1500 CE) > Derivative works of this file:  African-civilizations-map-imperial.png Meroë is the north end of Sudan. I don’t think that qualifies as “sub-Saharan” either. It depends on whether you define the region using modern political boundaries, or climatic zones: [![](http://www2.harpercollege.edu/mhealy/geogres/maps/ssagif/ssatzone.gif) ](http://www2.harpercollege.edu/mhealy/geogres/maps/ssagif/ssatzone.gif) [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Sub-Saharan-Africa.png](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Sub-Saharan-Africa.png) [http://www.idrc.ca/uploads/user-S/11184166631Map\_-\_Africa\_LRG.jpg](http://www.idrc.ca/uploads/user-S/11184166631Map_-_Africa_LRG.jpg) [http://nonstateactorsafrica.wikispaces.com/file/view/Sub-Saharan\_Africa.gif/31730581/Sub-Saharan\_Africa.gif](http://nonstateactorsafrica.wikispaces.com/file/view/Sub-Saharan_Africa.gif/31730581/Sub-Saharan_Africa.gif) I’d rather prefer something like the first two, since we are talking about an era prior to modern boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/12 "2010-05-27T22:16:58Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I was in Meroë not too long ago. It is most certainly Saharan rather than sub-Saharan. Four of us camped among the pyramids and there is almost zero vegetation… only sand, and near-zero humidity as well. Sub-Saharan starts a few hundred km south of Khartoum at best. Excellent user name/post combo. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/13 "2010-05-27T22:21:55Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > Map of pre-colonial African civilizations to consider: > > [File:African-civilizations-map-pre-colonial.svg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:African-civilizations-map-pre-colonial.svg) > > Meroë is the north end of Sudan. I don’t think that qualifies as “sub-Saharan” either. It depends on whether you define the region using modern political boundaries, or climatic zones: > > [http://www.harpercollege.edu/mhealy/geogres/maps/ssagif/ssatzone.gif](http://www.harpercollege.edu/mhealy/geogres/maps/ssagif/ssatzone.gif) > [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Sub-Saharan-Africa.png](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Sub-Saharan-Africa.png) > [http://www.idrc.ca/uploads/user-S/11184166631Map\_-\_Africa\_LRG.jpg](http://www.idrc.ca/uploads/user-S/11184166631Map_-_Africa_LRG.jpg) > [http://nonstateactorsafrica.wikispaces.com/file/view/Sub-Saharan\_Africa.gif/31730581/Sub-Saharan\_Africa.gif](http://nonstateactorsafrica.wikispaces.com/file/view/Sub-Saharan_Africa.gif/31730581/Sub-Saharan_Africa.gif) > > I’d rather prefer something like the first two, since we are talking about an era prior to modern boundaries. Usually Sudan is sorta counted in with the rest of “sub Sahran Africa”, but it is, now, part of the Sahara around Meroë; however, _it wasn’t when Meroë was an active civilization_. The Sahara has of course moved since - which is what makes this an interesting question. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/14 "2010-05-27T23:02:04Z")
Interestingly, Merotic is described in this BBC article as the “first sub-saharan language”. > **[BBC NEWS | Africa | Sudan statues show ancient script](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7786361.stm)** > > Three ancient statues, engraved with a little-understood sub-Saharan language, are unearthed in Sudan. > [@](#): > > The ram statues symbolise the god Amun, and include the first discovery of a complete royal dedication in Meroitic script, only found before in fragments. > > It is the oldest written sub-Saharan language and dates from the Meroe period of 300BC to AD450. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/15 "2010-05-27T23:08:00Z")
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned Ethiopia (Kush), one of the first officially Christian nations in the world, and one that successfully resisted colonization centuries later. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/16 "2010-05-27T23:32:25Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Sub-Saharan, pre-European colonisation, what was the most advanced nation in Africa, using social, political and technological standards as measurement. I would assume Ethiopia. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/17 "2010-05-27T23:55:26Z")
I find pre-colonial African history fascinating simply because the average person knows so little about it. Africa’s medieval period was not that dissimilar to Europe’s. While we think of sub-Saharan Africa as a bunch of unorganized and isolated tribes, in reality there were great and long-lived empires engaging in intercontinental trade and exchanges of ideas. Early explorers were impressed with how well ordered West African cities were. Indeed, the medieval architecture of Timbuktu is still impressive, although it’s a bit of an exception- much of Africa builds with mud, which is not given to the kinds of durable monumental architecture we associate with glory. Even today, the legacy of these empires live on and in many areas the pre-colonial political organizations are equally or even more powerful than the modern states. You can still see these empires in action today. The Mali empire was probably the most recognizably advanced empire in west Africa. It had control of massive amounts of gold and salt, and more exotic commodities like slaves, ivory and the like were close at hand. They were well positioned to trade with Europe and the Middle East. There have been times that Timbuktu was easily among the richest cities on the planet. Famously, when Mansa Musa went to Mecca he gave away so much gold that it depressed gold prices in Egypt for more than a decade. Culturally, several empires were instrumental to bringing Islam to West Africa, but the Mali empire probably advanced it the most, opening universities and libraries. Even today Timbuktu is one of the world’s greatest repositories of ancient manuscripts. The treasures there are absolutely mind-boggling, especially given how little money modern Mali has to preserve them. My favorite pre-colonial empire, though, is the [Bornu Empire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bornu_Empire). It arose from the Kanem empire, which emerged in Sudan in the 800s. Their cultural imprint is still strong. They were displaced by the [Sokoto Caliphate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokoto_Caliphate), which I would argue still maintains it’s political organization and power today, even across modern state boundaries. Many people in the area still see themselves primarily as subjects of their Hausa/Fulani kings, with the modern political state being a secondary and often irrelevant influence. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/18 "2010-05-28T02:09:13Z")
I might nominate the Empire of Benin. If we’re talking technological and organizational sophistication, they were as advanced as any of the other empires mentioned, though they weren’t as large. As to written culture, you have to look among the Sahelian kingdoms (Mali, etc.), where Arabic script was used since the early middle ages. Otherwise in sub-Saharan Africa (leaving aside the Horn of Africa), there’s not much there. The OP makes me wonder, though, how much Plato and Aristotle were known in Africa through the Arabs. If there’s an answer, it’s probably buried in the manuscripts of Timbuktu. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/19 "2010-05-28T02:40:53Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Even today, the legacy of these empires live on and in many areas the pre-colonial political organizations are equally or even more powerful than the modern states. You can still see these empires in action today. Can you elaborate further on that, or point me somewhere to find more information for myself? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982/20 "2010-05-28T03:03:42Z")
If you want to go really sub-Saharan, the how about [Zimbabwe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Zimbabwe)? There’s some massively impressive remains. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-advanced-african-nation-to-have-existed/540982.md?page=2)