# What was the most important Navy Ship of all time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2023, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250 "2023-04-06T13:07:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/121 "2023-04-17T14:04:06Z")
While arguably not the most important naval vessel of all time, SMS Goeben, the German battlecruiser that evaded a British fleet in the Mediterranean and reached Constantinople (along with the light cruiser Breslau) had [a major impact](https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/goeben_sms_and_breslau_sms) in WWI. The German offer to have both ships incorporated into the Turkish fleet played a huge role in drawing Turkey into the war, helped bottle up the Russian navy in the Black Sea (and keep it from being adequately supplied by its Allies), thus contributing to the Russian collapse in 1917. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2023, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/122 "2023-04-18T01:55:41Z")
This is an [interesting article](http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm) on that. > [@](#): > > **“Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall > Who’s the Baddest of Them All?”** > > With these prophetic words, I present my _new, updated_ answer to the age-old question: _which battleship was the best one out there?_ > > **Just What the Heck Does ‘Best’ Mean?** > > That’s a really good question. For the purposes of this discussion, we’re going to actually award not one, but _four_ prizes: > > HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION > MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION > BEST ALL-AROUND SHIP, and > BEST ALL-AROUND TREATY BATTLESHIP > > The HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION title goes to the ship who can step into the ring and go toe-to-toe, one-on-one with any other guy, at whatever range, and have the best chance of winning. In other words, anti-aircraft and secondary armament and all that foo-foo stuff will be considered irrelevant. In principle, any ship of the seven presented here are candidates, however, the smart money is on either _Yamato_ or _Iowa_. > > MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION is pretty much the same, except that it goes to a battleship which at least pretended to pay lip service to the provisions of the Washington and London Naval Treaties. > > BEST ALL-AROUND BATTLESHIP gets awarded to the battleship which has the best blend of speed, firepower, armor, secondary and anti-aircraft armament, fire-control, and the whole ball of wax. > > BEST ALL-AROUND TREATY BATTLESHIP is awarded to the best all-around vessel which roughly conforms to the naval treaties cited above. This rules out _Yamato_ and _Iowa_ . They rank Iowa as the best Heavyweight and well as the Best All-Around Battleship. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/123 "2023-04-18T21:15:14Z")
Huzzah for the USN! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/124 "2023-04-19T14:15:36Z")
The Iowa may be better, but can it be equipped with a Wave Motion Gun? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/125 "2023-04-19T14:34:17Z")
Maybe a smaller one. That show was very silly but fun. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/126 "2023-04-19T20:50:20Z")
Or frickin’ shipkiller lasers. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2024, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/127 "2024-03-28T22:52:17Z")
BB62, The New Jersey just moved from Camden to Philly for a small refit. The most decorated ship in US History and awesome museum ship needs some work. I think she’s due back in Camden by June. > **[Dry Dock Details & Tickets – Battleship New Jersey](https://www.battleshipnewjersey.org/drydock/)** Now a huge part of her decorations came after WWII but I believe she beat the Enterprise by 1 decoration. * * * My prejudiced pick for greatest Battle Ship of all time. Also I served in a combined fleet with her for a short period. The Ranger & the New Jersey did a joint fleet mission making it at the time the most powerful peacetime fleet ever assembled. Not bad. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/128 "2024-03-29T00:39:56Z")
I think there’s a strong case for the New Jersey being the most important battleship of all time, but most important Navy ship? I think I might give it to Enterprise, which was in the thick of many critical naval battles in WWII, including lanching the Doolittle raid, and was critical in the battles of Leyte Gulf, Midway, Guadalcanal, etc. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/129 "2024-03-29T00:41:41Z")
No question, I made the same points. CV-6, no ship did as much. BB-62, specifically for Battleships. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/130 "2024-03-29T00:55:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > …it immediately made existing battleships obsolete and sparked an international naval arms race. Ironically, that applied to Great Britain as well. Once Dreadnought was there and everyone else needed one GB found they had to start building a lot more of them too. Quite expensive. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/131 "2024-03-29T02:04:37Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I think I might give it to Enterprise, which was in the thick of many critical naval battles in WWII, including lanching the Doolittle raid I definitely agree about the importance of CV-6 Enterprise, but the pedant in me is compelled to point out that while the Big E was half the flight decks of the Doolittle task force, the actual raid was launched from Hornet. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/132 "2024-03-29T02:36:21Z")
That’s a goid point, and not pedantic at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/133 "2024-04-03T19:51:05Z")
They may not have been the ships most responsible for turning the tide of war, but mention should be made of Staten Island ferries’ role in the U.S. Navy during the Civil War, notably the USS Hunchback and the USS Clifton, which was involved in action against Confederate batteries at Vicksburg and in the capture of Galveston. > **[Pre-1905 Vessels](https://siferry.com/pre-1905-vessels/?expand_article=1)** > > Ferries used on the Staten Island Ferry route prior to NYC taking control in 1905 Hunchback Commission Date 1852 Gross Tonnage 517 Passengers / Cars Builder Jeremiah & Simonson Engines 1 Cylinder Vertical Beam Propulsion Steam Paddle Wheel... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/134 "2024-04-04T21:37:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Since the OP did not specify U.S. navy ships, [H.M.S. Dreadnought](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(1906)) (1906) should be considered. > > As the first battleship to feature an all-big gun (12") main battery and turbine rather than reciprocating engines which gave it a speed advantage, it immediately made existing battleships obsolete and sparked an international naval arms race. > [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > The USS Monitor was quite important from a technological standpoint. Right. After the Dreadnaught , every other battleship was obsolete. After the Monitor- every wooden warship was obsolete. Both ships changed naval warfare in a matter of a decade. There really wasnt an "ur-Aircraft carrier that fits, and aircraft carriers took decades and decades before everyone realized the battleship was obsolescent (still good for shore bombardment and escorting Carriers). > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Had neither _Dreadnaught_ nor _Nautilus_ been commissioned, that is just wiped from historical existence, they would have been replaced in the historical records as “firsts” by essentially identical vessels without much delay, and so history would have marched on. Sure, but the _design_ is what revolutionized naval warfare in both cases- HMS Dreadnaught and USS Monitor. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What ship was the most advanced for its time (probably HMS Dreadnaught) No, the Monitor. HMS Dreadnaught did changes Battleships from 4 main, many secondary, more tertiary batteries- to All Main plus some tertiary batteries. But the designs were still big Castles of steel. The Monitor changed line of battle ships from wood, sail powered, many many muzzleloading cannons in a broadside-- to iron armored, steam propelled, two big breechloaders in a turret… The HMS Victory would be blown apart in minutes by one of the Unions seagoing Monitors- which would maybe need repainting afterwards. The **SMS Schleswig-Holstein** sailed with the High Seas fleet. Yes, it had only 4 main guns to 8 or even more, but it was still a decent ship. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It occurred to me that the Monitor and Merrimack should probably be counted here. Yep. > [@Lancia](#): > > The _Monitor_, however, was the first steam powered ship with a screw propeller, plate armor protecting the deck, and a rotating turret. Plate armor was impractical on a sailing vessel as it made the ship too heavy to sail sufficiently, steam powered screws had only been introduced the year before on the HMS _Warrior_ (and the _Warrior_ had sail to supplement the steam engine), and a rotating turret had never been put on a ship before the _Monitor_. > > The _Monitor_ was, in many ways, a proof of concept that was so amazingly successful that nearly every single naval ship subsequent to its construction utilized these basic features. Yep, the Monitor was a big game changer. Mark Twain said that if the British had declared against the USA, a few of our double turreted seagoing monitors would make short work of the entire Royal Navy. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > _Guerriere_ was one of the best RN frigates, but she was still undersized compared to the _Constitution_. And the British navy was more or less manned at that time by well fed slaves. A man could be grabbed and impressed. He was fairly often not allowed to leave his ship, for fear of desertion. His pay was pitiful, when he could get it. Torture was common, and a sadistic captain could cheerfully ignore RN rules for punishment. The best Royal Navy seaman was very good indeed, the worst was useless. Still, they were overall better than any other navy at that time- except the all volunteer US Navy (the Dutch and the Danish also had good seamen, but the Royal Navy took care to take or burn their navies) > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I can’t find stats for how many ships HMS Victory sank but she played a huge role in her time and, arguably, saved the British empire. The HMS Victory was just a little bigger than most of the other ships in the fleet, and she always sailed as part of a large fleet. If Nelson had his flag on a 90 gun ship of the line, his great command skills would have been just as important. If was Nelson who made the Victory important, not the ship that made the Admiral. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > You seem to be suggesting that if Nelson was on some other 100 gun ship (_Royal Sovereign_ perhaps) the outcome at Trafalgar would have been different. Right. or even a 90 gun. In the Battle of Cape St Vincent, Nelson was aboard the HMS Captain. The Battle of the Nile- HMS Vanguard, Battle of Copenhagen- HMS Elephant, etc etc. It was Nelson, not his ship. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > I don’t think this argument counters my projection that the Enterprise cut at least a year off the war. If Japan took Midway and etc. There would have been that much more to take back. It certainly led to less US casualties in the Pacific and a shortening of the war. By how much? I dont really know, but certainly winning the Battle of Midway saved many US lives. The Big E was certainly an important ship, no doubt. I dont think two years, however. Several months? The USS Constitution and it’s sister ships did teach the British to respect the American navy, but of course, they just made excuses. > [@Gorsnak](#): > > It also wasn’t seaworthy. While it was the first with its specific combination of technologies, it wasn’t actually a combination that was usable without further development. _Warrior_ was a lot closer to how armoured steam-powered battleships actually developed. _Monitor_ by contrast became the name for a class of small coastal defense vessels. But the HMS Warrior was designed with sail power, and mostly muzzle loading broadside cannons, and a rather thin armor. Basically, the RN still wanted its sail powered broadside line of battle ships- but with some armor added. That design was a failure, every navy going to turrets rather quickly, and mostly abandoning sails- sails which caused the HMS Captain to sink. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/135 "2024-04-10T21:51:17Z")
_Monitor’s_ Dahlgrens were muzzle loaders. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/136 "2024-04-11T00:07:23Z")
You are right sir. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/137 "2024-04-12T03:33:23Z")
And using half-charges of powder on Navy Department orders, out of concern that the Dahlgrens might burst. Had they used full charges, as the USS _Weehawken_ did against the CSS _Atlanta_ later in the war in a similar clash, the _Monitor_ might have decisively defeated the _Virginia_. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/138 "2024-04-18T04:10:50Z")
> **[USS Enterprise (CV-6): The Greatest Aircraft Carrier Ever](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/uss%C2%A0enterprise%C2%A0cv-6-greatest-aircraft-carrier-ever-210391)** > > The USS Enterprise (CV-6), also known as "The Big E" or the "Gray Ghost," stands as the most decorated and legendary aircraft carrier of World War II. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2024, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/139 "2024-04-18T20:59:09Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > [USS Enterprise (CV-6): The Greatest Aircraft Carrier Ever | The National Interest](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/uss%C2%A0enterprise%C2%A0cv-6-greatest-aircraft-carrier-ever-210391) I would agree that the USS Enterprise was the greatest aircraft carrier, and perhaps even the greatest USN ship. I would disagree that it was the most _important._ ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2024, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250/140 "2024-04-19T11:56:55Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You could say it played a outsize role in WWII. But that’s it. It didn’t singlehandedly win the war The argument could be made that it did because it was the Enterprise’s planes that effectively destroyed 3 of the 4 Japanese carriers at the Battle of Midway. I mean, yes you are right that we would have won the war if that two minutes never happened but if you had to pick the most impactful ship to win the war, then you would be hard pressed to find another ship. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-most-important-navy-ship-of-all-time/982250.md?page=8)