# What was the "Nazi" cliche before, ya know, the Nazis? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 22, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589 "2010-07-22T13:23:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/41 "2010-07-23T02:55:17Z")
Possibly _Roman_, or even _Persian_. I have read “Oriental despots” or “eastern potentate” used as a a generic term for authoritarian and merciless, and _Babylonian_ conveys a combination of decadent, brutal, and all powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/42 "2010-07-23T19:27:46Z")
Lincoln probably would’ve favored “Tsar.” From an 1855 letter of his: “As a nation, we began by declaring that ‘All men are created equal.’ We now practically read it, ‘All men are created equal, except Negroes.’ When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read, ‘All men are created equal except Negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.’ When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some other country where they make no pretense of loving liberty - to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, without the base alloy of hypocrisy.” ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/43 "2010-07-23T21:12:20Z")
If \*Citizen Kane \*is any indicator, “anarchist” was an all-purpose slur used much as one today would use “Nazi”. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/44 "2010-07-23T23:39:37Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > If \*Citizen Kane \*is any indicator, “anarchist” was an all-purpose slur used much as one today would use “Nazi”. An anarchist is almost the opposite of an authoritarian, though. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/45 "2010-11-01T22:30:12Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > don’t forget the Inquisition and the evil Vatican, especially in British popular culture. The evil Papists were not quite as openly out to get them at the turn of the century as in late 16th century, but suspicion dies hard. And the Protestants back then were no less prone to exaggerating Inquisition impact than the atheists today. I think this might be my fave of the responses. I could easily see someone saying “They really run that place like the Spanish Inquisition.” or “He think he’s Cardinal Richelieu” and have a similar meaning conveyed. Monty Python reference in 3…2… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/46 "2010-11-01T22:52:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Monty Python reference in 3…2… Doesn’t work; everyone’s expecting it now. And I thought that “black and tan” had something to do with beer. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/47 "2010-11-01T23:23:00Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Were WWI Germans particularly authoritarian compared to the other Europeans at the time? That’s not really something I associate with them. From what I’ve read in novels, the Prussian military at the time was viewed as being arrogant and overbearing. In the book _…And Ladies of the Club_ by Helen Hooven Santmyer, relating the lives of women in a small Ohio town between roughly 1870 and 1930, some US descendants of German immigrants go to Germany shortly before World War I and come back saying “Germany is not at all like I expected, with all those Prussians around lording it over everyone else”. The lady that write the book was born in 1895 and presumably would know something about World War I German military people were viewed in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/48 "2010-11-01T23:25:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And I thought that “black and tan” had something to do with beer. [Originally largely exclusively the case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tan), [subsequently less so](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans), especially in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/49 "2010-11-01T23:25:09Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Were WWI Germans particularly authoritarian compared to the other Europeans at the time? That’s not really something I associate with them. The Belgians would care to differ with you. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/50 "2010-11-02T00:53:41Z")
George Orwell said in one of his essays “Decades before Hitler was ever heard of, the word ‘Prussian’ had much the same significance in England as ‘Nazi’ has today.” > [@mascaroni](#): > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham\_Outrage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Outrage) Gotta love the multiple references to the unarmed British bobbies borrowing guns from bystanders. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/51 "2010-11-02T00:56:44Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > I think, technically, Turks are from Turkmenistan. Most of the “Turks” in Turkey were not really Turks, at least before the Ottoman Empire was broken up. Turkmen are from Turkmenistan. Turks are from Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/52 "2010-11-02T02:29:38Z")
Definitely “Attila the Hun.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/53 "2010-11-02T13:21:58Z")
I once spun the joke here that prior to the Nazis, the tendency was to compare everything perceived to be in some way evil to the deeds of William the [del]Bastard[/del] Conqueror and his Norman-French henchmen. The propensity to do this was referenced as Godwinson’s Law. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/54 "2010-11-02T13:35:13Z")
While we’re discussing Nazis and it’s not a total hijack, did a lot of people have that mustache before he ruined it for everyone? Because even if you totally liked how it looked on you wearing one would be kind of a dick move. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/55 "2010-11-02T14:06:04Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I once spun the joke here that prior to the Nazis, the tendency was to compare everything perceived to be in some way evil to the deeds of William the [del]Bastard[/del] Conqueror and his Norman-French henchmen. The propensity to do this was referenced as Godwinson’s Law. 😉 Hear, hear, that was a good one! Nothing gets Bayeux. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/56 "2010-11-02T18:51:08Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Among the nations of Western Europe and the various Cossack groups “Bonapartist” had roughly the same connotation as “Nazi” does today, evoking the image of brutal, autocratic organized repression and arbitrary application of terroristic violence to strengthen the position of a centralized government beholden to a cult of personality. ‘Bonaparte’ as an epithet was probably a little between ‘Hitler’ and ‘Fidel’. Much of the opposition to him was motivated by a true sadness that the peasants and tradespeople of France no longer had the opportunity to be brutally exploited by an unproductive aristocracy. It is of course merely a coincidence that Bonaparte’s loudest opponents were themselves unproductive aristocrats. So I’m sure every red-blooded Duke, Czar and Prince in Europe saw Bonaparte as the very embodiment of evil, but for many people in Europe, Bonaparte was an Enlightenment hero, who saved the French Revolution (you know, the one that started by storming the Bastille to free the prisoners put there by the brutal autocratic and violent government beholden to a nearly literal cult of personality). Maybe he was a hero who fell into temptation and excess, but still a hero who started out on the right side. So I think “Fidel” applies: hated by some, but admired by some for his works. Edited to add: Just saw the whole thread on Napoleon [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=583775) ---
**Author:** ![heathen\_earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/13edae/32.png) [@heathen\_earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heathen_earthling)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/57 "2010-11-02T19:29:31Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > Checking whether someone is illegally in the country is “Nazi”. The “Soup Nazi”'s restaurant is gleefully covered as being opened again. Roger Goodell runs the NFL “like a Nazi”… People on both sides of nearly any debate seem to throw around the term “Nazi” at each other. > > It’s become the overwrought tired cliche of the day. > > Which got me wondering… before the rise of Naziism into the public consciousness in the '30s and '40s, what was the go-to comparison for being authoritarian or controlling or whatever? That gets me wondering, how long after the era of actual Nazis was it considered “too soon” to throw around the term when talking about trivial things like soup and football? Or would people in the '40s not share our modern sensitivity to something like that? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/58 "2010-11-02T20:39:18Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Before the Prussians it was the [Turks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Turkism). Calling someone “a regular Turk” indicated they were cruel and authoritarian. > > From the Wiki article: Today, that’s remembered only in pro football. In training camp, every player is afraid of “the Turk,” which is the name given to whoever it is that’s assigned to tell borderline players, “The coach wants to see you in his office- bring your playbook.” The Turk COULD be an assistant coach, a trainer, or even a ballboy. But the image in everyone’s head is of a vicious Turkish warrior with a big scimitar in his hand, ready to cut you to bits. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/59 "2010-11-30T15:06:12Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > That gets me wondering, how long after the era of actual Nazis was it considered “too soon” to throw around the term when talking about trivial things like soup and football? Or would people in the '40s not share our modern sensitivity to something like that? That’s a really interesting question. I’m too young (31) to know the post-war era… but looking back at 60s TV, be it comedies or news coverage or political commentary or whatever, I don’t recall any instances of the term Nazi being tossed around flippantly. We’re already starting to see Al Qaeda used as a bit of a punchline, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589/60 "2010-11-30T17:05:45Z")
I remember in the movie _Auto Focus_, an incredulous Hollywood producer reacts to Bob Crane’s proposal for what would become _Hogan’s Heroes_ by saying, “Oh, so it’s going to be about the _funny_ Nazis!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-nazi-cliche-before-ya-know-the-nazis/547589.md?page=2)