# What was the rationale in House Repubs blowing off the Sandy aid vote? NJ & NY Repubs are pissed! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 2, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877 "2013-01-02T20:46:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/41 "2013-01-05T11:20:31Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I’m not an insurer, so I’m not going to claim expertise. But you’re right mathematically, you spread it out over time, not people. > > Say a flood is expected on average every five years. And the cost of repairs per home, on average, is $20,000. So $20,000/5yrs/12months = $333 per month. That’s what everybody pays. Make it $400 to cover expenses and margin. > > Sounds like a lot? Good, that’s an accurate price for the risk of living in a flood prone area. Price is a signal that is supposed to contain that information. If it doesn’t, something is wrong. Here’s the problem. An insurer needs to bake in a reasonable profit and cover administrative overhead (which you point out). What you’re describing is essentially of savings plan of sorts, since it cares for an inevitability rather than a possibility (to simplify). So, when we account for the insurer’s overhead and profit margin, this model–while it does account for real costs–requires people, ALL people, to pay in more than they will get out. In your scenario, the average person would pay an extra $5K over that 5 years to get $20K in coverage. Nobody would do that. That’s why this is not a viable insurance model. Because it’s not insurance if the coverage is for a virtual inevitability. That’s not what insurance is or how it works. I agree with your basic point, however, which is ideally whoever chooses to live somewhere that certain outcomes are reasonably foreseeable, that person should bear the cost for making that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/42 "2013-01-05T12:50:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Re flood insurance, I’ve not looked into this but I would be shocked if claims that such insurance is unavailable are true. The problem is that floods tend to affect a huge area for a huge amount. When it comes time to pay out, it’s probably going to be a much larger payment than the insurance company can afford, because nobody can predict ahead of time how many people are going to be affected. With normal insurance, only a small percentage of the insured make claims at the same time, and this cost is covered by all of the customers who \*didn’t \*have to make a claim. With flood insurance in flood-prone areas, nobody makes claims for years on end… until the day damn near \*everyone \*makes a claim. Rather than reimbursing all of their customers, the flood insurance company would be filing bankruptcy. There’s simply no way to accurately estimate how much money the company will have to keep on hand or when it’s going to be necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/43 "2013-01-05T13:58:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Re flood insurance, I’ve not looked into this but I would be shocked if claims that such insurance is unavailable are true. In other words, you know nothing about the topic but feel compelled to speak as if you do? Look into it. There are NO private companies offering flood insurance in the US. > [@](#): > > To the extent that it’s about infrastructure repair and the like, it’s not such a pressing issue and moving the vote a bit is no big deal at all. Potable water isn’t an issue? Usable roads aren’t an issue? Safe bridges and tunnels aren’t an issue? Restoration of electric power isn’t an issue? You don’t see any pressing issue with thousands of people sitting in the dark, in winter, with no heat, no clean water, no working toilets? How long would YOU sit in the freezing dark with no drinkable water? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/44 "2013-01-05T14:09:39Z")
In theory, what’s the problem with flood insurance? Seems to me, this butts up neatly against the problem of rebuilding homes built in hazardous areas. If you build or buy close to the ocean, you can pay VERY expensive insurance premiums for the privilege of easy access to the beach, or else build or buy further inland. Isn’t this how insurance is supposed to work? Maybe I’m paying 10 grand or 20 extra because I’m living on the ocean, and the insurance is collecting that money from a lot of homeowners for a lot of years, while paying nothing out, so they should have the money to deal in case of a flood. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/45 "2013-01-05T14:13:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In other words, you know nothing about the topic but feel compelled to speak as if you do? Look into it. There are NO private companies offering flood insurance in the US. [That’s incorrect.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_insurance) > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, in flood insurance, the numbers of claimants is larger than the available number of persons interested in protecting their property from the peril, which means that most private insurers view the probability of generating a profit from providing flood insurance as being remote. However, there are insurers such as Chubb, AIG/Chartis, Fireman’s Fund that do provide privately written primary flood insurance for high value homes and The Natural Catastrophe Insurance Program underwritten by Certain Underwriters at Lloyd’s which provides private primary flood insurance on both low value and high value buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/46 "2013-01-05T14:16:22Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > In theory, what’s the problem with flood insurance? Seems to me, this butts up neatly against the problem of rebuilding homes built in hazardous areas. If you build or buy close to the ocean, you can pay VERY expensive insurance premiums for the privilege of easy access to the beach, or else build or buy further inland. Isn’t this how insurance is supposed to work? Maybe I’m paying 10 grand or 20 extra because I’m living on the ocean, and the insurance is collecting that money from a lot of homeowners for a lot of years, while paying nothing out, so they should have the money to deal in case of a flood. See post #41. Very expensive would mean, “more than I’ll get back in claims.” You’d be better putting your “premium” in a bank account. There’s no good business model for insurance where the only people who want the insurance are those people who will inevitably (not maybe, inevitably) need it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/47 "2013-01-05T15:16:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > Should be the public be responsible for rebuilding your beachfront cabin? > > Considering the alternative is having to deal with the resulting homeless people, yes. Or do something to find them a replacement, on or off the beach. “Ignore the problem and hope it goes away” doesn’t work, no matter how much the Right likes the idea. People who own beachfront cabins aren’t going to be homeless when they are destroyed by weather. And I would recommend that the government discourage building in sensitive and fragile coastal areas by denying coverage under the National Flood Insurance Program and by declining to provide permit approval for such construction. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/48 "2013-01-05T15:50:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This was simply a slap in the face to the Northeast by the Republicans. They got rolled on this ‘fiscal cliff’ deal, and as usual, instead of admitting they were wrong or learning something from it, they need a scapegoat. **Frankly, I think it’s time to end revenue sharing** , let the welfare states starve. But how is a state like Mississippi supposed to compete against New York and California when NY/CA et al can just throw money around to attract the best citizens. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/49 "2013-01-05T16:24:36Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Should be the public be responsible for rebuilding your beachfront cabin? This was touched on in the news - IIRC, the majority of beach homes damaged (so much less than inland homes even) were primary residences. So in most cases we’re not talking about bailing out some rich folk who got soaked on their vacation home, but rather, where people actually live. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/50 "2013-01-05T16:27:04Z")
For the most part, beachfront cabins may be primary residences, but they are not the homes of people without means. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/51 "2013-01-05T16:41:29Z")
Does it matter how rich they are? Disaster relief is a basic function of modern government. Rich people deserve mail service or police protection just as much as any poor person. If Jamie Dimon’s house was one of the ones damaged, I hope he gets the same options as I would. If you have a vendetta against wealth, stick it where it makes sense, like in the tax code. Politicizing disaster relief is a dangerous game. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/52 "2013-01-05T17:00:27Z")
I’m not talking about disaster relief. I’m talking about whether the government should subsidize the building of homes on erosion-prone coastlines by providing flood insurance for them. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/53 "2013-01-05T17:18:20Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m not talking about disaster relief. I’m talking about whether the government should subsidize the building of homes on erosion-prone coastlines by providing flood insurance for them. So do you propose moving the entire population to areas without potentials for natural disasters? No earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, heavy snowfall/blizzards, drought, volcanoes. Really? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/54 "2013-01-05T17:25:02Z")
All the flood insurance talk makes me feel the need to toss this out there… After the storm, I spent about a week volunteering at a relief center. I’d gather up the things people needed and rode out to the neighborhoods where people we’re shoveling their lives onto their front yards. Now these were people who lost _everything_, but I learned a lot about pride that week – people are very reluctant to take a handout. We had more than enough supplies to give out, but a polite “no, thank you, we’re ok” was the most common response. After awhile, I figured out that the best way to get them to take some supplies was to first simply stop and talk with them for awhile. In many cases, we were the first non-neighbors they were talking to since the storm, and they just wanted to tell their story. Once they did that, then they were often happy to graciously accept some supplies. Now, to the point – I heard the stories they had to tell, but really, I only heard one story, over and over and over again: “This neighborhood was built up in the 19[50/60]'s. My [father/grandfather] bought that house, and since they lived close to the river, they had to pay flood insurance. [Two/Five/Ten] years ago, we finally paid off the mortgage. Once we did that, the insurance adjuster came out and told us that we weren’t in a flood zone, and that we didn’t need flood insurance. They took our money for forty years and then cancelled the policy, leaving us holding the bag.” Don’t try and convince anyone around here that insurance companies didn’t know full well that a storm like this wasn’t going to be rolling up the Metedeconk River within a few years of those mass cancellations. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/55 "2013-01-05T17:32:51Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So do you propose moving the entire population to areas without potentials for natural disasters? > No earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, heavy snowfall/blizzards, drought, volcanoes. Really? I’ll quote myself. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Certainly you can mitigate the damage from natural disasters. I remember seeing the aftermath of Hurricane Andrew in which older, more poorly built homes were destroyed while those that met the latest standards were left intact. Similarly, there are standards for buildings that can survive an earthquake. On the other hand, the coastline is going to be hit very hard by hurricanes and winter storms. Even if you can build the home strong enough to survive, the land beneath you is going to be eroded by the storms and so the home will be lost. Should be the public be responsible for rebuilding your beachfront cabin? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/56 "2013-01-05T20:17:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know if this was their rationale, but I myself think this outrage is itself outragious. It’s unfortunate that the government (aka taxpayers) is becoming more and more responsible to reimburse everyone for all sorts of losses, as long as it happened as part of some heavily publicized Event. > > And it’s not enough that the government is responsible. But you can’t even delay a vote on it. “I want my money and I want it now!!!” > > Unfortunate, and a big part of why this country is in the situation it’s in. Yeah, I hate when my taxpayer dollars go to rebuilding infrastructure after a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/57 "2013-01-06T01:10:15Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > For the most part, beachfront cabins may be primary residences, but they are not the homes of people without means. Unless you mean “people with means” being lower middle class homeowners, you are wrong. When I lived in NJ we sometimes rented houses in the affected area. Most of the people there did live there all the time. The houses were of moderate size, the cars were not luxury cars, and if my neighbors were people of means it sure fooled me. The Jersey Shore is not at all like La Jolla and Malibu, where beach side houses are owned by the rich. Plus, not all home affected were even on the water. The flood waters spread pretty far over the island. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/58 "2013-01-06T02:38:20Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Unfortunately, in flood insurance, the numbers of claimants is larger than the available number of persons interested in protecting their property from the peril, which means that most private insurers view the probability of generating a profit from providing flood insurance as being remote. However, there are insurers such as Chubb, AIG/Chartis, Fireman’s Fund that do provide privately written primary flood insurance for high value homes and The Natural Catastrophe Insurance Program underwritten by Certain Underwriters at Lloyd’s which provides private primary flood insurance on both low value and high value buildings. So… private flood insurance will be provided for the rich by private companies? Alright, I didn’t know that. That doesn’t eliminate the fact that the vast majority of people flooded by Sandy _were not rich_ but were middle class or lower, and most of the homes weren’t “high value”. A lot of that property was built 50 years ago and has been passed down as a primary residence within families. No doubt there are real estate developer’s salivating at the prospect of maybe picking up some of that beachfront property to build McMansions on. The other thing to note is that _Lloyd’s is NOT an insurance company_. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/59 "2013-01-07T22:12:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In other words, you know nothing about the topic but feel compelled to speak as if you do? Look into it. There are NO private companies offering flood insurance in the US. Point taken. > [@](#): > > Potable water isn’t an issue? > Usable roads aren’t an issue? > Safe bridges and tunnels aren’t an issue? > Restoration of electric power isn’t an issue? > > You don’t see any pressing issue with thousands of people sitting in the dark, in winter, with no heat, no clean water, no working toilets? How long would YOU sit in the freezing dark with no drinkable water? These things are all being taken care of without this bill. There’s no one who is sitting in the dark in winter etc. because this bill hasn’t been passed. It’s only a question of who pays for it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877/60 "2013-01-08T08:32:09Z")
Sandy was in no way predictable, and acting like it was is ridiculous. This a completely different weather system that we are seeing. There hasn’t been something like this in that area in a long, long time, definitely in my remembered lifetime. Of course the government pays when its infrastructure is damaged. Sure, you can charge people more to live on the coast–but that’s too late right now. These people were given their homes with the promise that the government would help them, and the government has to do it. The government does disaster relief. It’s part of the job description. When the local community can’t handle its problems, the government steps in. That’s what happened in Katrina. That’s what happened in the ice storm around here that cut a bunch of people without power. And that’s likely what happened in your neck of the woods when your state was declared a disaster area. They aren’t getting fucking free flood insurance. This wasn’t a flood. It was a fucking hurricane, and one that damaged the local infrastructure. What’s next, complaining that they could count on volunteers to come help them, instead of having a chopper on call to pick them up? The complete inhumanity of some people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-rationale-in-house-repubs-blowing-off-the-sandy-aid-vote-nj-ny-repubs-are-pissed/645877.md?page=4)